Curious - which strat has won for Axis in GS mod

[jjdenver]

Hi,

I've seen the wacky results in supermax's AAR game. I won't count that because Sealion was made too easy for him, and Canada is much tougher now.

Other than that outlier game, I haven't seen a winning Axis strat in any of my PBEM games or the AAR games to date. In BJR mod there seemed to be a plethora of strategies that each had a legit shot to win. I don't see that to be the case in GS mod mainly due to a few factors:
1) stronger USSR
2) auto-gain of Persia and the ease of moving USSR to defend Iraqi oil
3) stronger British presence in middle east
4) What seems like a stronger Britain - slightly stronger when Canada reinforcements are included - to defend against Sealion
EDIT: 5) Partisans cost PP, manpower, and siphon off a lot of troops.

Could anyone who's seen an Axis strategy actually succeed in GS mod post it here? If enough responses are made to warrant it I'll prepare a spreadsheet or something.

Thx

[rkr1958]

Hi,

I've seen the wacky results in supermax's AAR game. I won't count that because Sealion was made too easy for him, and Canada is much tougher now.

Other than that outlier game, I haven't seen a winning Axis strat in any of my PBEM games or the AAR games to date. In BJR mod there seemed to be a plethora of strategies that each had a legit shot to win. I don't see that to be the case in GS mod mainly due to a few factors:
1) stronger USSR
2) auto-gain of Persia and the ease of moving USSR to defend Iraqi oil
3) stronger British presence in middle east
4) What seems like a stronger Britain - slightly stronger when Canada reinforcements are included - to defend against Sealion

Could anyone who's seen an Axis strategy actually succeed in GS mod post it here? If enough responses are made to warrant it I'll prepare a spreadsheet or something.

Thx

I won a squeaker (minor axis victory) against Paul. And, Borger is in position to win a major axis victory against me. In both games Borger and I essentially followed the same strategy except that Borger executed it far better than I. This is not surprising since Borger is the better player and I learned most of my strategy and tactics from him (and Jim).

The strategy followed is what I call the nominal, or historical, strategy. While the exact dates and order of countries invades isn't exactly historical it's approximate and can produce a game that has an historical feel to it.

1. Poland defeated by 9/21/39.
2. Denmark invaded on 9/21/39 and ~50% of the time conquered on that date.
3. Holland - Fall/Winter 39.

I only repair my air units initially. I build one lab in each area by the first four or five turns of the game. I then build a third fighter and third tactical bomber (in that order) so that they'll be ready to support my attacks on Belgium and France. I then repair all my depleted units over the winter. Finally, I build my 2nd lab in all areas except naval by the time I invade Belgium and France.

4. Belgium - Conquered on first turn of Spring 1940 (i.e., first fair turn).
5. France - This is where Borger's better play has the advantage. He usually can capture Paris by May 1940 or the 1st Turn of June 1940. In our game he got a weather break and captured by on the last April turn of 1940.

During the attacks on France I'll build a 2nd Strategic Bomber and 3 new u-boat flotillas.

6. Norway - Fall 1940. Again, because of Borger's early capture of France he only invaded with one corps in order to invade and conquer Greece in 1940. For me I usually don't have the time to get Greece in the Fall of 1940 and have to wait until Spring 1941. So I usually use two corps to invade Norway.

I use multiple u-boat fleets to screen my Norway invasion and to be in position to prevent UK reinforcement of Bergen.

In the Winter 1940 I'll get air upgrades in all areas for all air types.

7. Greece/Yugoslavia - Spring 1941 (the first fair turn of 1941). Here again Borger was able to take out Greece in 1940. When I invade the Balkans I move all axis air to support those invasions and to defend against, and punish, any intrusion by the Royal Navy. Two axis fighters can devastate a CV. One to draw out an intercept and the second to attack it directly. German strategic and tactical bombers can devastate BBs and DDs.
8. Barbarossa in June / July 1941 after Infantry, Armor and another air upgrade to all units.

A strong axis holding force in Libya with fighters stationed on Crete to counterattack any UK incursion into Libya when Russia is invaded. Not all axis fighters are needed initially for Barbarossa. Also, you can move a strategic and tactical bombers to Crete to help if the British do march into Libya.

9. Get as far as you can in Russia in 1941 and 1942. Counterattack where necessary in 1943 and hold on for dear life in 1944 and 1945. Of course, in my game against Borger he's still very strong in Russia in the summer of 1944. Even if all the axis units on the Russian front were suddenly to dissolve I don't believe the Russians could get to Berlin in time. I try not to get too greedy in 1941 and make sure my units are rested and at full strength when the first severe winter hits. I also use the winter of 1941 to build a double defense line that will serve me well in 1943 and after.

10. I have in the past posted a tactical bomber, two strategic bombers and a fighter to Norway to interdict the Murmansk convoy. Add in three u-boat flotillas under this air umbrella and you can keep most convoys from getting through through most of 1943. Not only is this air umberlla effective against the Murmansk convoy it creates a death zone for any allied DDs or BBs foolish enough to move into it; especially given the strong presence of three u-boat flotillas.

11. For 1943 a strong fighter presence on all three fronts is necessary. My only offensive operations in 1943 and after are targeted counterattacks to either restore my defensive lines or kill or attrict high value units such as armor and air; especially on the Russian front.

[jjdenver]

Hey thanks for the thorough description.

Does Greece seem worth the cost? Partisans and an additional Allied invasion site seem to almost outweigh the ability to put a few FTRs in Crete and the limited extra PP's.

Also how is the invasion of Greece usually managed? Is it the same type of operation as BJR (i.e. a seaborne invasion only could take Athens), or is it overland + seaborne, or just overland?

Is Libya reinforced or do the forces on hand initially just handle the defense? This active defense of Libya vs a passive defense with evacuation of mech + inf is something I'm not sure about.

[rkr1958]

Hey thanks for the thorough description.

You're welcome. Again this is the "nominal" strategy I've learned from play against Borger and Jim; except they execution is far superior to mine.

Does Greece seem worth the cost? Partisans and an additional Allied invasion site seem to almost outweigh the ability to put a few FTRs in Crete and the limited extra PP's.

Yes because of Crete. Crete is strategically important given the North African supply constraints. Deployment of a two or three bombers and a fighter (or two) to Crete can mean the difference between losing Libya in 1941 or holding it until early 1943. Also, Crete should be impossible for the allies to retake until the Brits and Americans are pushing into Libya in strength at which time it's now longer of strategic value to the axis.

Also how is the invasion of Greece usually managed? Is it the same type of operation as BJR (i.e. a seaborne invasion only could take Athens), or is it overland + seaborne, or just overland?

Amphibious invasion of two German corps landing next to Athens support by a LOT of axis air. Also, an Italian corps can land on the island south of Athens and on the second turn provide a third corps that attacks Athens. I'll used Rhodes airbase before the invasion and on the turn of the invasion move a couple of bombers and / or fighters to the two hex Greek island between Athens and Crete. Also, I use the Italian navy to protect my invasion transports, provide supply and use the sub to defend against the Brits trying to reinforce Crete. While the Royal Navy certainly outclasses the Italian navy, a strong axis air presence negates this and can combine with the Italian navy to inflict serious losses on the RN if they stick their nose where it isn't wanted.

Is Libya reinforced or do the forces on hand initially just handle the defense? This active defense of Libya vs a passive defense with evacuation of mech + inf is something I'm not sure about.

I reinforce Libya. At a minimum I'll have a German and Italian fighter and three German infantry corps. Though I'll usually add a third German fighter based in Crete and another German infantry corps. I'll also move in three or four additional Italian infantry corps. Again, the airbases on Crete is your trump card against an "early" incursion into Libya by the Brits. If they do move in you've got to pull one or two air units from Russia and punish them for their early incursion.

[schwerpunkt]

My experience is similar to Ronnie, having also played Paul and Jim. In one game I scored a comfortable axis minor victory after repelling an allied invasion of Italy-France and holding the line of Novgorod-Smolensk-Orel-Voronez-Stavropol. In the other game, I tried the withdrawal from North Africa strategy (which I dont recommend) and additionally screwed up my research by not getting Inf levels fast enough, but, am a few turns away from securing a stalemate - barring any surprises ( 5 turns to go, with the allies due to take Paris in 2 turns and have just conquered Denmark, and the Russians unlikely to make it through the Ostwall as they have been bled dry getting to Danzig-Warsaw-Lvov-Odessa).

[jjdenver]

So, is a basically conservative historical strategy executed well resulting in a minor victory the only successful axis strategy in GS mod? Has anyone seen any others work?

[rkr1958]

So, is a basically conservative historical strategy executed well resulting in a minor victory the only successful axis strategy in GS mod? Has anyone seen any others work?

Borger's about to get a major axis victory against me with this strategy. But no, I've seen the axis win with other strategies. Look at my AAR against Joe. Even though we were playing the BJR mod, that version was very close to the GS expansion. Joe crushed me.

Bottom line is that both a well executed conservative historical or a well executed aggressive alternate historical axis strategy can win and has won. My experience base tells me its the soundness of the strategy and the skill of the player that determines victory.

Three of the best players I know are Borger, Joe and Supermax. Their playing styles are totally different and, while I haven't played Supermax, I can say with confidence that the game experience as the allied player against each of them would be totally different; but the end result would be the same. That is, a loss. The only thing in doubt would be how big of a loss (minor, major, strategic or ultimate)? I would consider a minor loss as the allied player against any of those three as a victory, a major loss as a draw and a strategic or ultimate loss as a loss.

I've must have played Borger a dozen times or more and haven't gotten close yet. One day though the student will snatch the pebble from the master's hand.

In addition to having fun and learning a lot that's why I keep trying my luck against Borger. One day ...

[supermax]

If you want my opinion on this, i think that the main isue is the strenght of the Russian forces. But it is the way it was historically, since i think that even with not making their historical mistake the germans would never have beaten the Russians.

But there are ways to win this game i am sure. In a game against Joe, i am a Beginning 1943 and i have England under the Nazi boot and my russian front runs from Archangelsk to Stalingrad... I really thought the game was in the bag... But it was not so at all!!!I think i made a critical mistake, that i once i took england, i left the western allies to their own devises, and i should have built a strong fleet or many, many subs to harass the convoys...

So in 1942 instead of launching the final offensive on Omsk, i was forced to transfer most of the german offensive punch to England to block the massive allied invasion that joe had prepared. It worked perfecty, but at the expanse of finishing the Russians. So now joe is cuonterattacking big time and my strategic options are now very limited.

So i say that the best strategies are either:

1- Really early and successeful Sealion, then build a sub fleet and destroy convoys as much as possible but concentrate on Barbarossa after that
2- OR Play for broke in Russia, stake everything on a lightning campaign in Russia for 1941. I think the Russians can be beaten with speed in 1941. A strategy of advancing slowly with air preparation, then tanks then infantry will not do the trick. The Russians needs to be overwhelmed with troops and angles of attacks. Everything needs to be risked in 1941, regardless of the losses, because it is the best window of opportunity to destroy the russians, there are no serious english or US threat at that time. After that, it is another story... Most players are too cautions when attacking Russia in 1941. I think i will try that strategy i my upcoming game against JJ denver and post it on the forum. We'll see whre that leds the german fortunes.

[pk867]

I have played a game where the Axis player takes Poland, Holland, Belgium, France. Pulls everything out of North Africa and makes fortress Italia.

Launches attack into Russian. He took Moscow in January 42'. He then drove straight for Omsk.
The map was crazy... Not a front line anywhere!! Pockets of guys all over the place. He did not take Leningrad or Stalingrad.
He got to within 4 hexes of Omsk when the Allies landed in France in early 43' . He kept trying for 4 more turns, but never got any closer and then the bottom dropped out. Axis surrendered in Aug 44 after all 3 capitals gone captured by the western allies.

[joerock22]

Overall strategy is only a small part of victory or defeat. A lot of the game comes down to tactics at the corps level. In other words, how good a field commander are you? Can you maximize enemy casualties while minimizing your own? Can you avoid making tactical mistakes that cost you lots of units? Do you go for broke and surrounding enemy forces, or advance slower and mass firepower? Do you prefer tanks or planes or mechs or subs? The options are endless, and many types of tactical approaches can work.

And perhaps most importantly, can you break from your favored tactics and catch the enemy by surprise when the situation calls for it? Adaptability is so important, both to game situations and to opponents, because there is a great variety of both out there. The great ones will hit you with something different every game so you never quite know what to expect. I think this is where most games are won. If you are a better fighter than your opponent, you will probably win because it will allow you to recover from some strategic mistakes.

[pk867]

Well spoken

[supermax]

Well said Joe!

[OxfordGuy3]

Hi - great thread! I can see the value in invading Greece (espc. for Crete) and Norway (for resources and to attack the Murmansk convoys), though perhaps less so, as there is not always time for this, but I'm unsure whether its worth attacking Yugoslavia, given the possible delay to Barbarossa, damage to units and high level of partisans. What are the pros/cons in *not* attacking Yugoslavia? Will Bulgaria still join the Axis? Does it make Greece harder to retain? Thanks!

[rkr1958]

Hi - great thread! I can see the value in invading Greece (espc. for Crete) and Norway (for resources and to attack the Murmansk convoys), though perhaps less so, as there is not always time for this, but I'm unsure whether its worth attacking Yugoslavia, given the possible delay to Barbarossa, damage to units and high level of partisans. What are the pros/cons in *not* attacking Yugoslavia? Will Bulgaria still join the Axis? Does it make Greece harder to retain? Thanks!

Pros - It's an easy conquest and easy PPs. Two tactical bombers, an armor, mechanized and infantry corps on a fair weather turn can knock out Yugoslavia 70%+ of the time in 1-turn. You do want two or three more infantry corps in reserve to keep the Yugoslavia army in check if it takes 2 turns.

Cons - you have to deal with the partisans after conquest.

[schwerpunkt]

Hi - great thread! I can see the value in invading Greece (espc. for Crete) and Norway (for resources and to attack the Murmansk convoys), though perhaps less so, as there is not always time for this, but I'm unsure whether its worth attacking Yugoslavia, given the possible delay to Barbarossa, damage to units and high level of partisans. What are the pros/cons in *not* attacking Yugoslavia? Will Bulgaria still join the Axis? Does it make Greece harder to retain? Thanks!

Pros - It's an easy conquest and easy PPs. Two tactical bombers, an armor, mechanized and infantry corps on a fair weather turn can knock out Yugoslavia 70%+ of the time in 1-turn. You do want two or three more infantry corps in reserve to keep the Yugoslavia army in check if it takes 2 turns.

Cons - you have to deal with the partisans after conquest.

If you situate 3 ARM near Timisoara, the probability of a 1 turn attack rises to 99%. With respect to Yugoslav partisans, isnt that what Bulgarian units are for? (As a matter of fact, that is precisely what the Bulgarian role in the war was as they wouldnt send troops to fight in Russia and only deployed them in Yugoslavia and Greece)

[rkr1958]

Could anyone who's seen an Axis strategy actually succeed in GS mod post it here?

Just do what Borger did to me in the game we just finished. He crushed me and achieved a Strategy Victory as the axis. He controlled three major capitals (Berlin, Rome and Paris) and had my allies well under control. I've attached screen caps from my last turn to show how dominate his victory over me was.

[trulster]

Could anyone who's seen an Axis strategy actually succeed in GS mod post it here?

Just do what Borger did to me in the game we just finished. He crushed me and achieved a Strategy Victory as the axis. He controlled three major capitals (Berlin, Rome and Paris) and had my allies well under control. I've attached screen caps from my last turn to show how dominate his victory over me was.

Nice screenshots, but maybe it would be more helpful if you could divulge what the actual strategy was that led to this endgame?

[rkr1958]

Could anyone who's seen an Axis strategy actually succeed in GS mod post it here?

Just do what Borger did to me in the game we just finished. He crushed me and achieved a Strategy Victory as the axis. He controlled three major capitals (Berlin, Rome and Paris) and had my allies well under control. I've attached screen caps from my last turn to show how dominate his victory over me was.

Nice screenshots, but maybe it would be more helpful if you could divulge what the actual strategy was that led to this endgame?

Here's his template, which if you follow AND execute as well as Borger you will win most if not all your games as the axis player. The problem that I have is that I don't know what to do, I do, but it's in the execution of the strategy. Borger's execution is flawless, where mine contains errors that are mortal against Borger.

1. Poland conquered by September 21, 1939.
2. Denmark conquered by September 21, 1939.
3. Holland conquered by October 31, 1939.
4. Belgium invaded and conquered on the first fair weather turn in 1940 (expected March 19, 1940 but can occur in February).
5. France conquered usually by May 18, 1940 (and no later than June 7, 1940).
6. Norway conquered in the summer of 1940.
7. Greece conquered in the fall of 1940.
8. Yugoslavia conquered on the first fair weather turn in 1941 (expected March 14, 1941).
9. A strong Barbarossa launched by June 22, 1941.
10. Strong axis air presence on Crete and in North Africa to punish any allied player to move into Libya too early.
11. A strong push in Russia in 1941 but stopping in time to gain efficiency before winter hits.
12. A renewed strong push in Russia 1942.
13. 6 to 8 u-boats in the Atlantic wreaking havoc on convoys and spying.
14. More fighters in the east and west then you'd think possible.
15. Strong armor and mechanized reserve force in Russia that kills any Russian attempted breakthrough in the winter of 1942 through to whenever. For me it was through to the end of the game.
16. A strong ground and air force in the west to block any attempted invasion.

If you can execute all those steps as well as Borger does then you will win.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It's also important to focus upon KILLING the units you attack. So make sure you have enough airpower to make sure you finish off the unit. It's better to attack 5 hexes and make sure you kill all of them than attack 7-8 hexes and risk only killing 3-4 units.

I also used the Luftwaffe aggressively against Russian airbases, especially tac bomber bases. That disrupted Ronnie's attacks several times. After 1942 I stopped advancing in Russia and just responded to Russian attacks. Every time Ronnie attacked and captured some of my front line hexes I counter attacked and got back to the original line again. I targeted his mech and armor units to reduce his offensive firepower. In late 1942 and 1943 the Russians barely have the initiative and it can end if you deplete the Russian airforce and kill some units.

I didn't waste an offensive into Egypt. That meant I saved oil. Instead I made sure I could get to Crete asap when the British moved towards Tobruk. Then I used the Luftwaffe for a few turns to wreak havoc upon the British units. By doing this you can make sure they won't move in force towards Tobruk until the summer of 1942.

The key to survive as the Germans is to not run out of manpower and oil too early. You advance in Russia in 1941 and 1942 and then you settle in behind river lines. Defend here and only attack the hexes that compromise your river line. This means many of the Russian attacks will be across river.

You can sto Overlord if you have enough corps units in France. Don't use garrisons as coastal defenses because they can be bombarded a eliminated. Also keep a reserve inland so you can finish off any Allied invaders before they can break out from the beachhead.

You need a bit of luck to get a strategic victory. I only managed it because Ronnie failed to force an Italian surrender. He tried to land in Sicily, but 4 Italian subs destroyed 2 of the 5 invaders and he called off the invasion. He could have forced an Italian surrender early in 1944 and then I could not have stopped Overlord. So I think I would have got a minor victory if Italy had surrendered earlier. The soft underbelly strategy is probably a very good one for the Allies.

[trulster]

You need a bit of luck to get a strategic victory. I only managed it because Ronnie failed to force an Italian surrender. He tried to land in Sicily, but 4 Italian subs destroyed 2 of the 5 invaders and he called off the invasion. He could have forced an Italian surrender early in 1944 and then I could not have stopped Overlord. So I think I would have got a minor victory if Italy had surrendered earlier. The soft underbelly strategy is probably a very good one for the Allies.

Absolutely agree, which is why I like the Close the Med strategy, Italy is kept safe with a minimum of commitment.

BTW, with so much air/uboats flying around, won't oil quickly become an issue in your strategy? Though going on the defensive in Russia in 42 would save a lot I guess.