Overlaps

[AlanYork]

A unit hits an enemy flank but it doesn't count as a flank charge. Fair enough, it fights at Impact as if it was frontal charge (p57 last bullet point) and has to slide across so it makes at least 1 base to 1 base frontal contact in the conforming part of the sequence (p71 first bullet point). Let's say it's not possible to do this, OK they go into an overlap position then. That's clear enough so we have two units overlapping each other. Is there any Melee Phase combat between these two overlapping units? Do we have two flanks in effect side swiping each other?

[marioslaz]

Not sure I understand correctly. But IMO in a such situation you don't move at all BG and they fight as they have conformed, not as an overlap (they can still have overlaps, but if they cannot align they fight where they are).

[philqw78]

Mario is correct. If you cannot conform correctly you do not conform at all, but those bases in contact fight as if they had conformed.

[deadtorius]

First off if the unit that was hit on the side was in combat the other unit could not charge it, page 57, A charge which does not qualify as a flank charge....provided that it was not already in melee to its front.
That might have solved your problem right off the bat. Can't see how a unit just standing there would not have room to allow the side chargers to conform to the front.

As per page 71 yes you should either slide to conform to the enemies front or to an overlap. So either way it would sound like if there was some frontal contact there to begin with... see above, if not and you still can't conform (not sure why unless your blocked by some enemy unit in front of your target or had friends charge them in the same turn) then I guess you would stay put and the enemy would conform to you in their maneuver phase if possible.

If all else fails and conform can't take place then you stay in your weird position and carry on.

as for combat I would guess that the target would not fight you since you now count only as an overlap so you would get your extra dice for 2 bases (assuming 2 deep unit) as an overlap and the overlap rules would apply.

Educated guess based on fuzzy logic and a rough mental idea of the situation

[AlanYork]

I hit an unengaged enemy unit in the flank but it didn't count as a flank charge. Impact was fought but then my unit was unable to conform to the enemy's front in the manoevre phase because another enemy unit was in the way. It could however go into an overlap position as there was no obstruction preventing that.

Hope this clarifies the matter so I suppose the question is in a case like that should my guys move to overlap or stay where they are?

If they do indeed move to overlap is there any fighting in the Melee phase as what you have there is two enemy units, neither one of which is engaged frontally and whose only contact with each other is side edge to side edge.

[gozerius]

A unit hits an enemy flank but it doesn't count as a flank charge. Fair enough, it fights at Impact as if it was frontal charge (p57 last bullet point) and has to slide across so it makes at least 1 base to 1 base frontal contact in the conforming part of the sequence (p71 first bullet point). Let's say it's not possible to do this, OK they go into an overlap position then. That's clear enough so we have two units overlapping each other. Is there any Melee Phase combat between these two overlapping units? Do we have two flanks in effect side swiping each other?

If they can't conform to either the front rank of the file they contacted, or to a valid overlap, they must, if possible, pivot into side edge to side edge contact. They then fight as if in front edge contact with, or overlapping the front rank enemy base. It depends on the actual situation. Then in each maneuver phase, the active BG must attempt to meet the requirements for conforming.

Situation one: Counts as fighting to its front. The enemy BG does not have another opposing base in front edge contact with the front rank base of the contacted file. In a recent game my opponent charged into a BG and stepped forward into a second BG, hitting it on the side edge. Since he could not conform we resolved the melee using the rules for "melees that cannot line up" on pages 86-87. Then in my maneuver phase I had to conform to him. Looked ugly for a turn, but was all cleared up in no time.
If the BG counts as fighting to his front, he cannot move away in the next maneuver phase.
Situation two: Counts as an overlap. The front rank base of the enemy BG is in front edge contact with an opposing base. In this case your BG adds dice as an overlap. and can move away in a subsequent maneuver phase. If there are other friendly bases qualifying as an overlap on this flank, you choose which ones will contribute dice. (You can only be overlapped once on any corner).

[gozerius]

I hit an unengaged enemy unit in the flank but it didn't count as a flank charge. Impact was fought but then my unit was unable to conform to the enemy's front in the manoevre phase because another enemy unit was in the way. It could however go into an overlap position as there was no obstruction preventing that.

Hope this clarifies the matter so I suppose the question is in a case like that should my guys move to overlap or stay where they are?

If they do indeed move to overlap is there any fighting in the Melee phase as what you have there is two enemy units, neither one of which is engaged frontally and whose only contact with each other is side edge to side edge.

You would pivot into side edge contact, and be considered "fighting to your front" until one or the other BG could properly conform. Or the tactical situation changed, like another BG joining the fun. Since the files in contact are considered "fighting to their front", the adjacent files would then qualify as overlaps, assuming they weren't qualifying as fighting to their front against a different opponent.

[AlanYork]

I hit an unengaged enemy unit in the flank but it didn't count as a flank charge. Impact was fought but then my unit was unable to conform to the enemy's front in the manoevre phase because another enemy unit was in the way. It could however go into an overlap position as there was no obstruction preventing that.

Hope this clarifies the matter so I suppose the question is in a case like that should my guys move to overlap or stay where they are?

If they do indeed move to overlap is there any fighting in the Melee phase as what you have there is two enemy units, neither one of which is engaged frontally and whose only contact with each other is side edge to side edge.

You would pivot into side edge contact, and be considered "fighting to your front" until one or the other BG could properly conform. Or the tactical situation changed, like another BG joining the fun. Since the files in contact are considered "fighting to their front", the adjacent files would then qualify as overlaps, assuming they weren't qualifying as fighting to their front against a different opponent.

Let me see if I have what you are saying straight. Let's say my unit's bases are "A" the enemy's bases are "B"

They line up like this after conforming to overlap, a frontal conform not being possible: A1 A2 A3 A4 B1 B2 B3 B4

So in your opinion A4 fights B1 as if they were fighting frontally and A3 and B2 join in as overlaps for their respective sides.

Yes?

Am off to bed now but hopefully enlightenment will dawn tomorrow!!! Many thanks to yourself and the others who took the time to reply.

Regards
Alan

[gozerius]

That's how I read it.

[lawrenceg]

If you read the definition of overlap position on page 75 you will find that overlap positions only exist against enemy that is already engaged. There is no overlap position against unengaged enemy.

If you hit the flank of unengaged enemy with a non-flank charge then

Either

You conform to a front-to-front contact if this is possible

or

You stay in position and fight as if you had conformed front to front (usually with each side getting an overlap as well).

You never conform to a side-edge to side-edge position if it is not an overlap on an engaged base.


You can charge an engaged file if it is only engaged by another charge in the same impact phase or if you hit a 3rd rank or further back.

[nikgaukroger]

I believe Lawrence is correct - the overlap position bit was sorted in a thread about conforming last year IIRC.

[Polkovnik]

If they can't conform to either the front rank of the file they contacted, or to a valid overlap, they must, if possible, pivot into side edge to side edge contact.

I don't remember seeing that in the rules. Can you give a page number ?

[deadtorius]

Probably not in the rules but in the FAQ somewhere, which if one thinks about it does make sense, you would stay engaged in your enemies flank your front to his side then I guess he would conform to you if possible, but it would be counted as a frontal engagement. I would suppose in this case you depending on your frontage say 6 bases and your opponent is 2 deep you would get extra dice for overlapping, 2 front engaged and 1 overlap, the other guy 2 front engaged bases.

Is that correct too or not? Just how it would seem to me before any conforming if it was even possible with another unit possibly getting in the way of the conform.

[Polkovnik]

Probably not in the rules but in the FAQ somewhere....

Not in either as far as I can see. This may be the way you play it but is incorrect.

As others have said above, if you cannot conform properly and fully, you don't conform at all this turn.

[deadtorius]

Never run into this situation so never had to worry about it.
Just trying to figure out the dice situation from what Lawrence had said.

[gozerius]

Perhaps I was reading too much into the last sentence in the bullet about conforming when in contact with a flank when not a flank charge. "This still applies even if conforming is not possible." Since you cannot do the impossible, I assumed that something other than conforming must still be done. The only logical thing is to "pivot to conform with the front edge of the enemy battlegroup." In other words, pivot into side edge to side edge contact. This would clearly show that the BG in question was not a flank charger. Not moving at all is, of course, a perfectly acceptable outcome to me.

I suppose that line could just as easily apply to the fact that you may be required to conform to a base that causes you to no longer be in contact with the originally contacted base at all. It's so vague it would have been better to have left it out completely.

[AlanYork]

If you read the definition of overlap position on page 75 you will find that overlap positions only exist against enemy that is already engaged. There is no overlap position against unengaged enemy.

If you hit the flank of unengaged enemy with a non-flank charge then

Either

You conform to a front-to-front contact if this is possible

or

You stay in position and fight as if you had conformed front to front (usually with each side getting an overlap as well).

You never conform to a side-edge to side-edge position if it is not an overlap on an engaged base.


You can charge an engaged file if it is only engaged by another charge in the same impact phase or if you hit a 3rd rank or further back.

I'm just trying to keep up with this.

We are now saying that because my guys could not slide across and conform so that my extreme left hand side base had frontal contact with his extreme left hand side base that I should not have moved my unit at all, we fight again in the Melee Phase as if we did have that frontal contact and then in all likelihood he would conform to me when he became the active player, yes?

Looking at the rules on p58 and on p71 first bullet point though; a charge that does not count as a flank charge can't hit a base that is already engaged, in that instance it would simply become an overlap. OK so it has to hit an unengaged base. It does that, hits the aforementioned unengaged enemy base but just like as happened to me it can't conform in the manoevre phase. The rules quite clearly state that they must move to an overlap position if possible. What they most certainly do NOT say is that they stay where they are and don't move, at least not on p71 that deals with this situation they don't. So I move into an overlap position as per instruction which brings us back to the original question, do these two units, neither of whom have any frontal opponents but which are now side to side fight each other?

Gozerius seems to believe they do but the other opinion from lawrence that they just stay put there seems equally valid to me.

If lawrence is correct though (and I'm not saying he's wrong) when you look at the bit on p71 about after making a charge that doesn't count as hitting the enemy flank if you can't conform then you move into an overlap position, the part about moving into overlap position is completely redundant. If you don't move to an overlap position in the game example I gave then when DOES it happen??? All a bit confusing really.

Does anyone have a link to where this problem came up previously? Nik mentioned it earlier.

[gozerius]

The previous thread dealt with conforming when obstructed in normal front edge contact. Your situation is slightly different, and the rules aren't supported by a handy example of play, which causes a bit of uncertainty. Conforming when in front corner to side edge contact, as in your case, is muddied a bit by the wording in the last sentence of the appropriate bullet on conforming when in contact with a flank, but not qualifying as a flank charge. Normally, when a BG is unable to fully conform by the shortest move necessary, it does not move at all but continues to fight in an offset alignment. The point where Lawrence and I are not fully in synch is whether a BG in your situation pivots into side edge to side edge contact.
You seem to be using the term overlap for side to side contact.

We are both in agreement that you will still fight as though you completed your conform move. This is covered on page 86-87 "Melees that cannot line up". That is, if the front rank base of the file you hit is frontally engaged, you are treated as in overlap, with all the benefits of such a position.
If the front rank base is not frontally engaged, you are treated as being in full front edge contact with it and fight accordingly. This means that the bases immediately adjacent to the files in contact qualify as overlaps (the last bullet RE overlaps on page 76)

[lawrenceg]

Perhaps I was reading too much into the last sentence in the bullet about conforming when in contact with a flank when not a flank charge. "This still applies even if conforming is not possible." Since you cannot do the impossible, I assumed that something other than conforming must still be done. .

IMO

"This still applies even if conforming is not possible."

is referring to

"the enemy battle group is not fighting the enemy in 2 directions inthe melee phase."

[AlanYork]

I think that the most logical course of action is that my unit's left corner stays embedded in my opponent's unit's left side edge, (it doesn't count as a flank charge as we know), we fight the melee phase as if we both had our left hand bases fighting frontally against each other, with one base overlap either side to add to that and then whoever gets the chance to conform first does so when they are the active player.

Unless I'm badly misunderstanding you, this seems to be what you guys are saying??? (It still isn't what the rules say IMO but it makes perfect sense to me.)