Not so simple

[BlackPrince]

Having played a whopping dozen or so games with the same four mates I am still having some issues with difficult and simple moves. Could I get some clarification on what is correct.
1.The basics undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy if it moves its full 3" in a straight line is a simple move and only if it moves less than 3" then it is difficult move and needs a CMT?
2. Undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy wheels to change its facing a bit if one end of the BG does not move (eg anchored) so no base of the BG moves 3" then it is difficult move and needs a CMT.
3. Undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy move and in the process perform a wheel so that the wheeling end of the BG moves a full 3" then it is a simple move?
4. Only ever use drilled troops and never have this problem

Keith

[rbodleyscott]

Having played a whopping dozen or so games with the same four mates I am still having some issues with difficult and simple moves. Could I get some clarification on what is correct.
1.The basics undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy if it moves its full 3" in a straight line is a simple move and only if it moves less than 3" then it is difficult move and needs a CMT?
2. Undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy wheels to change its facing a bit if one end of the BG does not move (eg anchored) so no base of the BG moves 3" then it is difficult move and needs a CMT.
3. Undrilled HF no general but within 6" of enemy move and in the process perform a wheel so that the wheeling end of the BG moves a full 3" then it is a simple move?

All these moves are Complex and require a CMT.

Undrilled others, without general, within 6 MUs of enemy + any wheel or short move = complex.

[SirGarnet]

The Difficult Move is a subset of Complex Moves. The easiest way to avoid confusion is to remember that Difficult Move = anything in the last box of the first Advances row of the Complex Move Table (i.e., the box in the Other Undrilled column). Write "Difficult" in that box on your QRS for you and your mates and the terminology will no longer be confusing.

[BlackPrince]

Thanks for the quick replies and answering my questions. Now that I have the clear picture I have found what is causing our confusion I did not join the dots correctly the table on page 42 states Difficult forward move (see above [pg41]) with no more than a single wheel is complex.
any other forward move with no more than a single wheel is simple. In this case "any other" means outside 6MU of enemy or a general with the BG.
The online QPS only states "difficult" which had us confused but the chart in the back of the rule book is the clearest of them all as it states;
Any wheel or short move without a commander which starts, goes or ends <=6 MU from enemy is complex. I wish I had read this chart before our first game.

Thanks for clearing the issue up for us.
Keith

[pease1]

Now I'm confused....

When is a single wheel allowable in a simple move?

[rbodleyscott]

Now I'm confused....

When is a single wheel allowable in a simple move?

When any of the following apply:

- there is a commander with the BG
- there are no enemy within 6 MUs
- the BG is cavalry, light chariots or skirmishers (or non-cataphract camelry)
- the BG is drilled.

[hammy]

The confusion is caused by the use of simple, difficult and complex in the same area.

There are a lot of players who seem to think that difficult automatically equals complex. It doesn't, infact most of the time difficult moves are not complex.

The only time a short move or wheel is a complex move is when your BG is other undrilled troops AND you go within 6 MU of enemy AND you don't have a commander with your BG.

I can remember lots of discussion on this during the beta and nobody came up with a better set of words

The key to the whole thing is the "Difficult forward moves" section on P41. I appreciat that the QRS does cut down the words but there are space issues and there is a reference to "Difficult forward moves" in the useful rules section of the QRS.

[rbodleyscott]

The key to the whole thing is the "Difficult forward moves" section on P41. I appreciat that the QRS does cut down the words but there are space issues and there is a reference to "Difficult forward moves" in the useful rules section of the QRS.

To prevent problems arising from the use of different wordings in the QRS we are using exactly the same tables in the QRS as in the main body of the rules in FOGR. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[pease1]

Thank you. This clears it up I think. From posts earlier in the thread I got the impression that more moves with wheels were complex, but now I understand that's not the case and we've been playing it pretty much correctly.

[hammy]

The key to the whole thing is the "Difficult forward moves" section on P41. I appreciat that the QRS does cut down the words but there are space issues and there is a reference to "Difficult forward moves" in the useful rules section of the QRS.

To prevent problems arising from the use of different wordings in the QRS we are using exactly the same tables in the QRS as in the main body of the rules in FOGR. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It certainly is

[BlackPrince]

It is shame that the wording used in the table at the back of rule book (which is clearer) was not used in the table on page 42. Hindsight is a great thing but it does not take away the fact you guys have put together a great set of rules.

Keith

[hammy]

It is shame that the wording used in the table at the back of rule book (which is clearer) was not used in the table on page 42. Hindsight is a great thing but it does not take away the fact you guys have put together a great set of rules.

True but the wording on the QRS is pretty much identical to the wording on the chart in the main part of the rules except it doesn't say "see above".

The wording on the reference sheet at the back of the rules is a lot longer than the wording on the chart and space is tight on the QRS. To use the words from P173 rather than those on P42 would need another line and the text is already small. Perhaps it could have been changed to "Difficult forward move (P41) with no more than a single wheel".

[BlackPrince]

Could you add a small paragragh to next FAQ version to clear up any confusion over simple and difficult moves and the need to do CMT?

Keith

[hammy]

Could you add a small paragragh to next FAQ version to clear up any confusion over simple and difficult moves and the need to do

What is wrong with the paragraph on P41 of the rules?

If people don't read it in the rules why would they read it in the FAQ?

The page is references in the useful rules section of the QRS and in the player index.

I am not trying to be difficult but I don't see why a section in the FAQ would help.

[BlackPrince]

It is probably just me having a serious brain fade, but have read the rules through a couple of times the only point I had trouble with is simple and difficult move thing. For whatever reason I never made the connection between pg41 and the advance section of the QRS, neither did the other three guys I play with.

Keith

[hammy]

It is probably just me having a serious brain fade, but have read the rules through a couple of times the only point I had trouble with is simple and difficult move thing. For whatever reason I never made the connection between pg41 and the advance section of the QRS, neither did the other three guys I play with.

Keith

I appreciate that this area causes confusion and am just trying to see if there are ways that things could be improved.

Changing the QRS to have the P173 text might help but p173 makes no reference to the rule, just sumarises it and as I mentioned earlier it is a lot longer. We also tried to not use constructs like <= in the QRS.

Perhaps "'Difficult forward move' with no more than a single wheel (P41)" would be better

[hazelbark]

I think relabeling "simple moves" as "ordinary moves" would help end confusion with simple versus complex CMTs.

[BlackPrince]

As I am feeling very silly over my total misunderstanding of this part of the rules I might as well ask another dumb question!

A drilled cav BG with no general and <6MU of the enemy wants to turn 90 degress and move after the turn. The cavalry unit pass their CMT and the BG turns 90 degress how far can it move? Is the simple advance allow based on pg 41 so the cavalry BG must move 5MU without wheeling or is based on the simple & complex moves chart which means the cavalry BG can move <5MU and do a single wheel?

Keith

[SirGarnet]

The cavalry unit pass their CMT and the BG turns 90 degress how far can it move? Is the simple advance allow based on pg 41 so the cavalry BG must move 5MU without wheeling or is based on the simple & complex moves chart which means the cavalry BG can move <5MU and do a single wheel?

Why would there be a difference? As a Complex Move, you may make a 90 degree turn with a SIMPLE advance before or after. Look up at the Advances lines - whether drilled or undrilled cavalry, your Advances options are all SIMPLE and allow both a wheel and movement.

[hammy]

As I am feeling very silly over my total misunderstanding of this part of the rules I might as well ask another dumb question!

A drilled cav BG with no general and <6MU of the enemy wants to turn 90 degress and move after the turn. The cavalry unit pass their CMT and the BG turns 90 degress how far can it move? Is the simple advance allow based on pg 41 so the cavalry BG must move 5MU without wheeling or is based on the simple & complex moves chart which means the cavalry BG can move <5MU and do a single wheel?

Drilled troops (and undrilled cavalry and light chariots) can turn and make a simple advance.

A simple advance is any advance that is not complex.

Some advances (moving less than full move and/or including a wheel) are difficult but from the table on P42 or P173 or the QRS difficult moves are simple for all troops apart from 'other undrilled'.

As such a BG of drilled cavalry that passes its CMT can turn 90 and then make a short advance with a single wheel because the short advance while a difficult advance is still a simple move for that troop type.

Clear as mud now isn't it.