Soviets too strong?

[jjdenver]

The Soviets in GS mod seem awfully strong. In BJR I had some trouble getting my double defense line ready before a strong Barbarossa smashed into it. In GS mod I have so many units that there is no problem getting the line formed and when the Germans hit it I have 400 or 500 PP saved up and units in reserve.

Ronnie - any chance you'd want to gather Barbarossa stats? i.e. farthest city east end of '41, farthest city east end of '42, farthest city east end of '43, time of Barbarossa start?

In BJR I would really have a tough '42 with Soviets against a strong Barbarossa and the war often hung in the balance during a nailbiting '42 and '43 in Russia as the Soviets hung on. It's hard to imagine Russia getting on the ropes that way in this version.

I haven't been into '42 yet in any game so I'm just postulating really based on what I see in early winter '41 - can someone who's played farther shed some light or opinions?

[schwerpunkt]

My experience based on two recent games as the axis against competent opponents is that the soviets are historically strong but beatable. My last game ended in Jun 44 with the Allied player conceding and I held a line of Novgorod-Vitebsk-Smolensk-Voronez-Rostov-Stavropol.

Against a competent opponent as the axis player you have to be patient and concentrate on inflicting losses to the soviet player whilst minimising your own. So, the axis player has to keep hitting that double-line with concentrated air-ground attacks whilst at the same time hitting any sections that are only single line with the aim of drawing units to there. Your aim is to kill at least 4 Inf units a turn with any additional losses (eg air) a bonus - gaining territory is not the primary objective. If you can get the losses to 200 PP a turn during summer you are on your way to gaining territory and winning the war in the east.

[afk_nero]

This is interesting,

If there are two eqaully competant players which side has the edge?

Is there a chance that the Axis will beat Russia - as this was a real reality in WW2 and it was a close call for the Russians. You make it sound that a competant player would be able to get a draw at best on the eastern front. This doesnt sound right to me.

JJDenver is by the way a very competant and skilled player - as I am his opponent it is possibly my incompetance that means in '42 the Russians seem to have so much more of everything then the Germans. I hold Rostov and then follow the river line.
In Jan '42 its now the germans on the defensive for the rest of the game.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Some people claim the Axis is too strong and that's so difficult to push the Germans all the way back to Berlin.

Russia has more units, but less air and armor units. So if you want to build armor and air units the Russians had in the vanilla game before the start of Barbarossa then you won't have a strong defense line. If you only build corps units then you would probably get a double defense line, but with much less counter attack possibilities. It's your choice.

The games I've seen progress rather historically in 1941 and the Axis have a stronger punch in 1942 than they had in the vanilla game. So more Russian units are destroyed and they're forced to give up ground to save units.

GS is actually biased more in favour of the Axis than the BJR mod. The reason was that most BJR games ended with Allied victory late 1944. Now I think many games can last till May 1945.

If you follow strategies learnt in the vanilla game and even the BJR mod then you're up for some nasty surprises. I learn this even myself being harassed in Russia by the Germans in 1941 setting up the standard rear double defense line. So 1942 is going to be a difficult year for the Russians. And an experienced player like me has such a challenge with the Russians then it means they can't be awfully strong. You simply have to play the Germans differently from what you're used to.

It's to early to condlude about gthe ultimate game balance. But I feel both sides have fair chances to win and the strength of the players mean much more than the balance of each side. I can actualy lose games with the Allies now and in the BJR mod I rarely feared that.

[joerock22]

It's to early to condlude about gthe ultimate game balance. But I feel both sides have fair chances to win and the strength of the players mean much more than the balance of each side. I can actualy lose games with the Allies now and in the BJR mod I rarely feared that.

I agree with that. It's too early to make any meaningful conclusions about game balance, but I believe it is very close to even.

[jjdenver]

Yep sounds good. I mentioned in my original post that I haven't played that far - I just started to get the feeling so thought I'd solicit thoughts. I don't mean to be alarmist at all.

Thanks for all the input and opinions.

[schwerpunkt]

Just to clarify - I consider a "win" for the Germans as being able to maintain a strong easterly position. Oil and manpower considerations in my view make knocking Russia out very difficult against a competent player who doesnt suffer a major reverse in another theatre. As Stauffenberg said, the relative abilities of the opponents is more critical now I think as the east is pretty finely balanced.

[rkr1958]

Ronnie - any chance you'd want to gather Barbarossa stats? i.e. farthest city east end of '41, farthest city east end of '42, farthest city east end of '43, time of Barbarossa start?

That's something we've talked about but there's only so much time in the day and quite literally, "GS is NOT my day job."

However; with that said we're always open to adding other folks that want to help out. Would this be something you'd like to take on? If you do, a piece of advice, you need to define your stats and the data that players are to provide such a way that it's straightforward and easy to get. Otherwise; if it's too complicated, or players have to keep up with something, then players just don't bother. I can certainly understand that.

[rkr1958]

Also, my experience is that the Russians ARE not too strong but are about right. Below is a screenshot from my game against Borger. Granted Borger's a better player than me but it's October 15, 1942 and my situation in Russia tracks the actual war very well. Borger has blown a hole in my defensive line and could have easily advanced to Stalingrad. He choose to limit his attacks these last two turns in preparation of winter. I moved with strength into the Caucasus to defend at all costs the oil fields there.

I am waiting for winter to come and for the western allies to do their thing and I plan to "light" the axis up on four fronts. I don't think I'm letting out anything that Borger doesn't already know. The only thing that is not know is the timing.

[supermax]

Its funny how everyone seem to agree on the way to run the Russian strategy, that is - on the defensive... I have never played that way with the Russian and have yet to be beaten. joerock leaned it the hard way in our games together.

Most Axis players run headlong into russia without thinking 1 second that the Russian player could launch serious counter-attacks...

I am playing one of those game with Leridano at the moment and i destroyed 6 or 7 tanks + maybee 6-7 INF corps because he was careless in his advance, confident that i would just retreat and try to organise this mythic double line of defense...

I think this type of strategy, while totally giving the initiative to the germans, does the Russians no good. First of all the germans have all the choice of offensive direction and can advance confident that the russian player wont do anything. Second, he knows he is going to reach a line close to rostov-Moscow in 1941.

Finally and most importantly, it totally kills the fun of being the Russian commander. Fun is with movement, not static defensive lines...

Well, Leridano so far hasnt even yet crossed the first major river, Kive is still in Russian hands and we are in end of august 1941.

In another game against Joe Rock, i had hoarded my strenght in and around Moscow, while he was driving with his tanks in the south. I hit him so hard that the rest of his offensive was cancelled. Another game, in 1942 he pushed hard for Stalingrad. Instead of waiting for him, i launched all Russian forces, and i mean all, into this sector... After that Joe swithed to the defensive and the game was strategically over ...

[rkr1958]

In another game against Joe Rock, i had hoarded my strenght in and around Moscow, while he was driving with his tanks in the south. I hit him so hard that the rest of his offensive was cancelled. Another game, in 1942 he pushed hard for Stalingrad. Instead of waiting for him, i launched all Russian forces, and i mean all, into this sector... After that Joe swithed to the defensive and the game was strategically over ...

Wow ... Joe kicked my butt in the last game we played. I put him at the level of Borger, whom I've never beaten or have come close to beating.

Have you ever lost in CEaW?

[supermax]

Yes i did, but against one of my good friend (we've played since our youngest time together). He knows me by heart! He is not currently playing any games at the moment with people in this forum. So for now, i am safe

So far in my games with this community i have yet to find someone to beat me, although i might very well loose in the Amerika in Flames against Panzergeneral game if i dont succedd in taking Canada... I think we will know the final thing on this one in 3-4 turns...

I also tried to challenge Borger, but so far, no luck.

I am 4-0 against Joe Rock, 2 Axis, 2 allies. He is a VERY GOOD player, the best ive come up against in this community so far. A tough nut to crack, but i always find a way to surprise him. And besides, as Axis he doesnt know how to react to my russian offensive as of yet. It is he who told me that i was the first player he encountered that wasnt afraid of attacking with the Russians, even in 1941(i was puzzled by that fact at the time, and then started to look at AAR, and understood that general concensus is aruond the double-line of defense...). But he is going to beat me one day, he his very meticulous and organized, and i beat him so far because i keep upsetting his planning and keep him on his toes. But he'll come around in a game soon, since i am his total opposite in the type of war we wage. All my operations only hang by a thread, as you've seen in the invasion of England and the Amerika in flames game currently underway... Once he adapts to it, i am a goner!!!

We are currently playing 2 games in the MOD. First i play Axis, we are in 1942, i have England and i am just about to launch my offensive in Siberia after repelling an Allied invasion of England (still in progress). It is goind to end in the Axis in possession of Moscow and maybee London as well. . The other game we are also in 1942 and i am playing the Allies. Here again i am still holding Moscow we are almost in August 1942. My winter offensive of 41 kinda upset Joe's plans, and i am making a stand around Moscow with a strong force. I believe i can hold Moscow all the way up to winter. Strategically, i have the upper hand right now, even if Joe has total dominance with his subs in the Atlantic - does it really matters??? (i always tend to overlook this aspect of the game as victory in my opinion is on land).

A host of other players as well (Schwerpunkt, Leridano, etc.) i played against and still am, and some other i dont remember. I played against a particulary bad one where i made the germans surrender in 1940 as Allies. That was not even funny.Again there it was the same assumption: 99% of players wont launch a french counter-attack, even if the german players has been sloppy in his attack of Belgium or careless in his troops positionning.

I always think in this simple way: WHERE IS MY OPPONENT DOESNT EXPECT ME TO STRIKE? Find a weak point and exploit it to the max, hence the offensiving for example with Russia. You should see the state of Leridano's forces right now... We are in 1941 and i have almost broken his southern wing and may very well do so. There wont me much juice left in the tank with the germans once i start getting troublesome with the western allies...

[supermax]

Ahh and also, i find that the russians are too strong in the MOD, but it is the way it was historycally. I dont understand how you can loose with Russia in the MOD.

Its very easy, you just wait for the german to advance and bang you hit him. If he is too strong like Joe always is with his air-tank-INf rolling thunder strategy, well you let him advance all the way into the no-rail zone and then counter attack in another sector of the front (quietly move your forces there). It doesnt matter if there are no forces in front of the Axis in the center when you launch your counter-attack somewhere on the map... The Axis will not be able to exploit it and will have to react to your attack.

The western allies are another matter, again most axis players are not commiting much forces to the MEd but are ready for anything if you invade the Atlantic front. So why bother to oblige? You just move strong elements in the MED and hit him there for example.

Joe as shown me how subs are powerful in the mod by completly dominating the Atlantic. Intitially i tried to produce strat bombers, CV and DD to counter him, but after he sank some of them in a big Atlantic battle, i figured that there is no point in producing a ton of ships and planes ot protect your revenue that will be used to build more of those sub-countering units... So why not look at the map and find ways to increase the brits revenue with conquering territory?

Its all a matter of perception, really.