New Player - Help with Byzantines please

[pptheos]

I am an old DBM player and a new FoG player.
I own miniatures that would allow me to play Nikephorian, Komnenan, Post Latin or Late Byzantine with almost any availlable Ally, be it of arab eastern or western origin (except ottomans).

I have been searching on the last 12 or so pages of the forum but I haven't found a thread on any byzantine army.
Does this mean that they are not competitive?
Can anybody give advise for a viable Byzantine army list along with some tactical tips?

Thank you in advance!

[philqw78]

Try Tim Porters pages. Lots on most FoG armies. Even a bit on Byzantines from me, if that's worth anything. They are certainly competetive.

http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-index.php

[pptheos]

Hi phil,

I've read some of you posts as I was searching for Byzantine related info in the forum.
In one occasion, if I recall, you seem to consider the Late Byzantine (or was it the PLC Byzantine?) as the best army of the period.
This was under the "best armies" thread.

Could you please be kind enough to give me some more info on the composition of your list and your strategy?

I have had a look in both lists and this is an example of what I have come up with:
Late Byzantine-Serb
Total 800
TC: 3 x35 =105
Ally SerbTC: 1 x25 =25
1 Irr Horse Archers LH: 4 x10 =40
2 Irr Horse ArchersLH: 4 x10 =40
3 Irr Archers LF: 8 x5 =40
4 Reg Archers MF: 6 x7 =42
5 Tzakones MF: 6 x9 =54
6 Byz Sp: 8 x7 =56
7 Serb LH: 4 x8 =32
8 Serb LH: 4 x8 =32
9 Vardariot Guards Cv: 4 x15 =60
10 Byzantine Lancers Cv: 6 x13 =78
11 Serb Kn: 4 x23 =92
12 Kavalarioi Kn: 4 x26 =104


As for the PLC Byzantine, I don't have the list with me but the basic idea is that I have a combination of Knights with LH.
I even use a byzantine ally for extra knights and light horse and a cheaper TC.

The question is what to take from the rest of the list. Is it worth it to take HF defensive spearmen? A BG of MF hillmen? some MF archers?
What proportion of Lancer Cv, Bow-Cv, LH, Kn?

[SirGarnet]

There are a large number of posts on Byzantine lists, armies, representation in the game, etc. if you go back far enough. Unfortunately, the search function is now disabled, though I understand there is a workaround through google. These armies are not in the easy to play category, but can be used well.

[spikemesq]

I enjoyed playing Komnenan Byzantines at the IWF. My poor performance was entirely operator error (Round One was my 3rd game of FoG, and all).

They are a powerful, albeit small, army. Much more of a frontal punch than in DBM. You can also build them as a Pin/Punch list if you like.

The straight forward approach was good for a new FoG player because there was no guile needed. Here is my list:

1 Javelinmen A LF Unprotected Poor Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4 2 8
2 Byz Archers A LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
3 Skythikon A LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
4 Skythikon B LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
5 Kavallaroi B Kn Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 18 72
6 Byz Archers B LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
7 Kavallaroi C Kn Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 18 72
8 Latinkon C Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 26 104
9 Latinkon C Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 26 104
10 Varangians D HF Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - - Heavy weapon - 4 17 68
11 Varangians D HF Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - - Heavy weapon - 4 17 68
Troop Commander TC - - - - - - - 4 35 140
Fortified Camp CAMP - - - - - - - 1 24 24

HTH

Spike

[batesmotel]

I've played a few games with Byzantine armies and also a couple against. I think the first rule to remember that they are best used as combined armies. I don't think any of them works well as a single troop stype/category type of army. Nikephorian Byzantines pre-1041 are what I've liked best so far for a list. I have these in 25mm and used them fairly successfully in DBM and they seem to work fairly well in FoG as well. They placed second, I believe, in one of the large British tournaments in 2009. (Britcon?)

Chris

p.s. I've played them in 25mm on 6x8 tables with 1 MU=40mm, so about the same as they play in 15mm.

[philqw78]

Hi phil,

I've read some of you posts as I was searching for Byzantine related info in the forum.
In one occasion, if I recall, you seem to consider the Late Byzantine (or was it the PLC Byzantine?) as the best army of the period.
This was under the "best armies" thread
Could you please be kind enough to give me some more info on the composition of your list and your strategy?
.

The list was PLC and it is on Tims web pages. I would probably go for more LF if I used it again.

I have had a look in both lists and this is an example of what I have come up with:
Late Byzantine-Serb
Total 800
TC: 3 x35 =105
Ally SerbTC: 1 x25 =25
1 Irr Horse Archers LH: 4 x10 =40
2 Irr Horse ArchersLH: 4 x10 =40
3 Irr Archers LF: 8 x5 =40
4 Reg Archers MF: 6 x7 =42
5 Tzakones MF: 6 x9 =54
6 Byz Sp: 8 x7 =56
7 Serb LH: 4 x8 =32
8 Serb LH: 4 x8 =32
9 Vardariot Guards Cv: 4 x15 =60
10 Byzantine Lancers Cv: 6 x13 =78
11 Serb Kn: 4 x23 =92
12 Kavalarioi Kn: 4 x26 =104

I would not take any HF or MF. There is not enough to look after itself. It takes away points from the fighting troops. Better LF instead. Your Cav lancers in sixes are more surviveable but poor for manouver. They need to be helping your Kn catch lighter troops so need to get to the right place qucikly, and get out of the wrong place even more quickly. So 2x4 would be better. The Vardariot guard are nice. But just polish. Most bow cav in period are armoured so they will be outclassed in melee. If you put them one deep to skirmish they will be outshot. For this list I prefer the Epirot. You get the Albanian LH, which is almost as good as the serbs in melee, and it can shoot.

As for the PLC Byzantine, I don't have the list with me but the basic idea is that I have a combination of Knights with LH.
I even use a byzantine ally for extra knights and light horse and a cheaper TC.

The question is what to take from the rest of the list. Is it worth it to take HF defensive spearmen? A BG of MF hillmen? some MF archers?
What proportion of Lancer Cv, Bow-Cv, LH, Kn?

There is not enough MF to dominate any terrain and not enough HF to do much at all. So, IMO, All the Kn, 2 or 3 BG of armoured lancers, spend the rest on troops that do not have to fight but will enable your fighting troops to get into the right position.

Please note, I have written this at work so may be out on compulsory troop types. You may have to have some HF/MF in the Late Byzantine list. But I don't think so.

And Spike, your Varangians cost 19 pts.

[pptheos]

Thanks for the advise.
I agree that the most competitive list would be the Epirot option with Achaian Frankish Allies.
However, I have 8 superbly painted Serbian LH elements and I am just trying to put them in the list!

I' ve tryed to make a list similar to your PLC Byzantine list starting from the Late Byzantine list and adding on allies:

Late Byzantine (Sebian, Bulgarian Allies)
Byzantine C-in-C TC
Byzantine Subgeneral TC
Serbian Ally TC
Bulgarian Ally TC
1 Regular Archers LF Unprot Ave Dr Bow 6
2 Irregular Archers LF Unprot Ave Undr Bow 6
3 Irregular Horse Archers LH Unprot Ave Undr Bow Swordsmen 4
4 Serbian Light Horse LH Unprot Ave Undr - Lancer Swordsmen 4
5 Serbian Light Horse LH Unprot Ave Undr - Lancer Swordsmen 4
6 Irregular Horse Archers CV Prot Ave Undr Bow Swordsmen 4
7 Byzantine Cavalry CV Arm Ave Dr - Lancer Swordsmen 6
8 Bulgarian Horse Archers LH Unprot Aver Undr Bow Swordsmen 4
9 Bulgarian Nobles CV Armo Sup Undr - Lancer Swordsmen 4
10 Serbian Nobles KN H Arm Sup Undr - Lancer Swordsmen 4
11 Serbian Nobles KN H Arm Sup Undr - Lancer Swordsmen 4
12 Kavallarioi KN H Arm Sup Dril - Lancer Swordsmen 4

12 BG, 798 pts

3xKn, 3xCv, 4xLH, 2xLF
It could be fun to play and beautifull on the table!

Cheers

[pptheos]

And this would be a Late Byzantine List according to your instructions:

Late Byzantine (Achaian Frankish Ally)
Byzantine CinC [Epirot] TC
Byzantine Subgeneral TC
Byzantine Subgeneral TC
Achaian Frankish Ally TC
1 Regular Archers LF Unpot Av Dr Bow - - 6
2 Regular Archers LF Unpot Av Dr Bow - - 6
3 Irregular Archers LF Unpot Poor UnDr Bow - - 6
4 Irregular Horse Archers LH Unpot Av UnDr Bow Sw - 4
5 Irregular Horse Archers LH Unpot Av UnDr Bow Sw - 4
6 Irregular Horse Archers LH Unpot Av UnDr Bow Sw - 4
7 Albanian Light Horse LH Unpot Av UnDr Jav LSp Sw - 4
8 Albanian Light Horse LH Unpot Av UnDr Jav LSp Sw - 4
9 Achaian Frankish ArchersLF Unpot Av UnDr Bow - - 4 (ally)
10 Byzantine Cavalry CV Arm Av Dr - L Sw - 4
11 Byzantine Cavalry CV Arm Av Dr - L Sw - 4
12 Frankish Mercenaries KN H Arm Sup UnDr - L Sw - 4
13 Achaian Frankish Nights KN H Arm Sup UnDr - L Sw - 4 (ally)
14 Achaian Frankish Nights KN H Arm Sup UnDr - L Sw - 4 (ally)

14 BG, 800 pts

[philqw78]

And this would be a Late Byzantine List according to your instructions:

Suggestions, not instructions. I'm civilianised now.

Late Byzantine (Achaian Frankish Ally)
14 BG, 800 pts

I do like this more. Less reliance on allies. The 4 LF is a nice touch from them. Knights down last just where you want them and use the other troops to deliver them to the right point. Once your knights have broken in the Byzantine cavalry become very useful, stopping any enemy bolstering and picking on support troops. Skirmish off the enemy's good troops with your mass of light troops.

[pptheos]

Suggestions, not instructions. I'm civilianised now.

Sorry about that. English is not my mother's tongue...
Are you an ex-military?
I have played against an English named Phil Powell in the 2006 IWF DBM championship in Athens.
He was playing with a Syro-Canaanite and Ugaritic list. He had told me he was an army instructor.
A very nice guy.

Could this be you?

[grahambriggs]

Suggestions, not instructions. I'm civilianised now.

Sorry about that. English is not my mother's tongue...
Are you an ex-military?
I have played against an English named Phil Powell in the 2006 IWF DBM championship in Athens.
He was playing with a Syro-Canaanite and Ugaritic list. He had told me he was an army instructor.
A very nice guy.

Could this be you?

I'll answer for Phil:

Are you an ex-military? YES
I have played against an English named Phil Powell in the 2006 IWF DBM championship in Athens.
He was playing with a Syro-Canaanite and Ugaritic list. He had told me he was an army instructor. YES
A very nice guy. NO

So there must have been two Phil Powells in Athens. The key difference is the one i know may have been hiding from an ugly woman at that time.

[philqw78]

Graham was the Man (?) dressed like a clown who I had plenty of room to hide behind.

A very nice guy.

You are just being nice to me so that I come next year.

Was this the girl, stood behind Brian, not Brian? She followed me to Rome

[grahambriggs]

No, she wasn't anywhere near that pretty...