Macedonian Pike Armies

bertalucci · Post by **bertalucci** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:47 am

Anybody suffering with these?
Or can you win?
If so how?

Just fought Cartheginians vs Early Successor
Both units of pikes just blew up against African Spearmen and Galic Impact foot
Finally a close result cos the Successor cavalry won against the odds but ......

Ideas on a post card - or here please

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:19 am

the pikes should be even on impact vs the Gauls then ++ in the Melee. + then + vs the spear. If you've only got 2 pike BGs (sonunds not enough) you can put generals with them and rear support and they'll do OK.

It's important not to get the pike blocks isolated - they're quite narrow and so suffer significantly from overlaps

bertalucci · Post by **bertalucci** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:35 am

Graham

Erm - I was trying to do just that, experimenting with Therouphori and Nellies, swarms of LF and a lake to protect flanks but the 12 block kept losing bases and wore out and the 8 block lost the impact went shakey lost a base and imploded.

What is the recommeded practical pike plock size?
How many units of these should I field?
3x8 or do I need more?

Bert

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:47 am

Ask Mr Dalby and Mr Amey. They seem to be doing well with their Alexandrian Macedonian. Or, perhaps, like Alex they win the battle with their other troops.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:43 am

Sounds like some bad luck there. It happens but should be rare if you have generals fighting and rear support. Particularly unlucky to have the 12 ground down in melee.

How many pikes? 20 seems not enough to me. 36 would be a better number maybe. Small numbers of troops are more vulnerable to overlaps and also to the swings of chance.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:49 pm

The minimum I normally take for pikes is 32, either as 4x8 or 2x12 and 1x8. 1 BG of 8 is superior. (Hypaspists for Alexander or Philip.) This seems to work pretty well. Then support them with cavalry/cataphracts/Iphicratean Hoplites/Thureophoroi or Thorakitai. I really haven't tried using Nellies with Pikes yet. I prefer to have drilled troops to support their flanks where feasible. Ideally the supporting troops should be good enough and tough enough that the pikes are not the only threat your opponent has to worry about. Hammer and anvil is much more effective than just an anvil

Chris

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:37 pm

I run a Selucid army, almost like the Macedonian one, my pikes are 3 blocks of 8 bases 1 block is superior. I like to keep a TC nearby in case I need to throw him in for a re-roll on the average pikes. Never tried a 12 block, I like the 8's as they are quite maneuverable and if they do a 90 degree turn will keep the same frontage.
Sounds like pikes is not your problem, you might have too many lights and not enough support troops for your army. I fell into that with lots of light bows and slings. Lights can't do much for you and the points you spend on them is points you could have gotten something heavier and more useful with. Perhaps the lead your figures are cast with is unlucky, my one pike block has a habit of losing bases and eventually breaks in every game I put it in. I had one game where I lost a base out of each of my pike blocks managed to pass cohesion and fought my way to victory short a base for the rest of the game.
Find it hard to believe you would lose to Gauls as I can send Roman legions routing with my pikes most of the time. Keep in mind that in impact you will be ++ against whatever your opponent has so should go up 1 against Carthage spears, and then in melee you will be ++ opponent loses sword so does not count it, and either gets armour or you can even out against it. Hope that helped a bit.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:48 am

deadtorius wrote:I run a Selucid army, almost like the Macedonian one, my pikes are 3 blocks of 8 bases 1 block is superior. I like to keep a TC nearby in case I need to throw him in for a re-roll on the average pikes. Never tried a 12 block, I like the 8's as they are quite maneuverable and if they do a 90 degree turn will keep the same frontage.
Sounds like pikes is not your problem, you might have too many lights and not enough support troops for your army. I fell into that with lots of light bows and slings. Lights can't do much for you and the points you spend on them is points you could have gotten something heavier and more useful with. Perhaps the lead your figures are cast with is unlucky, my one pike block has a habit of losing bases and eventually breaks in every game I put it in. I had one game where I lost a base out of each of my pike blocks managed to pass cohesion and fought my way to victory short a base for the rest of the game.
Find it hard to believe you would lose to Gauls as I can send Roman legions routing with my pikes most of the time. Keep in mind that in impact you will be ++ against whatever your opponent has so should go up 1 against Carthage spears, and then in melee you will be ++ opponent loses sword so does not count it, and either gets armour or you can even out against it. Hope that helped a bit.

I completely agree. My seleucid block is 3 * 8 with 1*4 romanised argyraspids on one flank and elephants or theophoroi on the other. 1*4 Thracians provide cheap rear support to the 2 average pike BGs.

Any more pike and I then lose points to also dominate in the mounted fight:
- Elephants, Companion Cav, Galatian Cav, Cataphracts, Scythed chariots are an entertaining combo for any opponent expecting to swoosh around the phalanx with faster MF or mounted.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:48 am

I have tried scythed chariots twice now and find them a waste of 30 points. My one favourite Selucid units is the armoured spears. Now those boys can kick some Roman butt. Not a big fan of using the Galatian cav unless its a high point game, then I would bring them out. Who wants undrilled cav when you can have drilled stuff running about doing what you want with minimal re-rolls? Never tried the Romanized infantry yet, although I have the figures for both units just never put them together yet. Even have the figs for the mob, 12 bases of poor crap infantry that you still have to kill, they should hold up a flank for a bit I think at 24 points. Going to start them 3 wide by 4 deep and when they hit they can expand out for free to get overlaps.

Its a good army with lots of design choices and has almost everything any ancient army could get, that was why I chose it originally.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:36 am

Ideas on a post card - or here please

As Phil has noted, I've enjoyed some success with Alexandrian Macedonians. The pikes aren't the battle winnning BGs however.

If you send me a PM with your email address I'll happily send you some sample lists I've used.

It's a great army with lots of variants.

bertalucci · Post by **bertalucci** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:13 pm

All

Thanks - Especially Graham and Pete

More pikes, less lights, type with the lights on to correct spelling sounds like the order of the day.

Bert

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:51 pm

That should help you out, just check your new pikes to make sure they were cast in lucky metal