Two Newbie Questions (Thanks for helping -- No search?)

fineredvin · Post by **fineredvin** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:12 pm

I played my first game on Sunday with Owain Glyndwr’s Welshmen -- but two questions came up that I could not find the answer two... one general, one specific.
General: When are you allowed (or not allowed) to measure in FOG. There seems to be nothing in the rules to indicate proper measuring decorum.
Specific: A BROKEN unit should be forced to take a cohesion test in a given turn; however, being broken that unit can go no lower on the table. Obversly, a unit cannot be rallied if it has dropped a cohesion level that turn. Does the broken unit have to roll a "check" to see if they would have dropped a level, and therefore be unable to rally -- or can they rally even though they were eligible to drop a level?

There may seem petty, but answers would help our group.

Fineredvin

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:18 pm

Don't believe there are any measuring restrictions in the game, might be in competitions but in friendly games its up to the players to decide.

Once a unit is broken it can't drop any lower so no cohesion tests are taken. You can not attempt to rally in the same turn as the unit drops cohesion. You can not attempt a rally if there is any enemy within 6 MU, excluding enemy camps and commander bases,this is where your lights come in handy. You need to have a general who is in line of command, allied general can only rally his own contingent, and be with the unit to attempt a rally.

OK so some extra stuff in there hope that answers your questions, and enjoy the game.

fineredvin · Post by **fineredvin** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:24 pm

deadtorius wrote:Don't believe there are any measuring restrictions in the game, might be in competitions but in friendly games its up to the players to decide.

Not a great help -- when we argue about it. Why does the game not address what seems naturally a huge issue?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:28 pm

Personally I don't find premeasuring a big deal we do it all the time in the game, I like to keep my horse archers about 3 1/2 MU from their target so when they bolt its impossible to catch them and they can come back and be annoying again. Is there a specific instance where premeasuring is causing issues?

fineredvin · Post by **fineredvin** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:41 pm

deadtorius wrote:Personally I don't find premeasuring a big deal we do it all the time in the game, I like to keep my horse archers about 3 1/2 MU from their target so when they bolt its impossible to catch them and they can come back and be annoying again. Is there a specific instance where premeasuring is causing issues?

The argument is... and I understand without agreeing, that ancient commanders would never have had the ability to track the location of troops as well as we gamers can... That 1/2 MU that you can measure, might have been impossible for an ancient to judge. I have met proponets of the game that say no premeasuring should be allowed. I might be asking for too much, but it would be nice to pull out my ruler without disapproving looks.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:43 pm

fineredvin wrote:
deadtorius wrote:Don't believe there are any measuring restrictions in the game, might be in competitions but in friendly games its up to the players to decide.

Not a great help -- when we argue about it. Why does the game not address what seems naturally a huge issue?

The rules do not address the issue because there are no restrictions on measuring in FOG.

Remember - we are playing at being generals, not gunners.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:45 pm

Because there are no restrictions on measuring inherent in the game. Since you have to be "in range" to conduct charges, intercepts, shoot, etc. It would be very counterproductive to restrict pre-measuring.

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:51 pm

The game bases and figures are representative also to enable game mechanics. So, measuring is no big deal, in fact it is really necessary to see if units can charge, must test, can intercept, are in range to shoot, etc. I don't understand what you would do if you did not measure - estimate if you can charge and then if you can't then you don't? And, then make a normal move anyway. Seems like doing all that would just cause more arguments and confusion. Keep it simple, use the rulers along with the game figures and dice - don't make it harder than it needs to be.

Bill

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:59 am

Playing in competition measuring happens all the time. Otherwise you can't see if things can shoot charge etc. People also measure to keep themselves out of shooting and charging distance of enemy, more than 6 MU from the table edge, out of your charge range but in mine, etc. Sometimes people even measure moves ahead. "Can I reach his camp in 3 turns? If not I'll support that unit."
It does in fact save a lot of arguing when you can say exactly where your troops are.
You might not think it to be very realistic, but I'm sure commanders had a good idea when they were getting too close for comfort, and its just as realistic as toy soldiers.
As for the broken BG it does not test if it is already broken, so in theory could be bolstered that in the JAP of that turn. Provided they are 6 MU from all enemy. Which is unlikely if they have cause to test.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:36 am

The overall effect of pre-measuring seems realistic given that actual archery range, movement distances and charge ranges are not the fixed (well, subject to variable move dice) distances over fixed turns used for the game mechanics, but cases where the angle of archery or the speed and duration of the advance varies and events are running concurrently. On the grand tactical level, the question is the sequence of events - can I catch them? Pre-empt them? Get in range to shoot effectively before they are ready to launch a charge? I like the way FOG plays very much from the perspective of chains of events and the importance of commander foresight and judgment in both planning ahead and reacting to circumstances.

durrati · Post by **durrati** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:43 am

It sounds like that you or some of the people you play with are used to rules where an important part of the skillset is estimating distance and relative position - Warhammer being by far the most famous such game.

These skills are not part of FOG. If someone tries arguing that a real ancient general would not be able to measure the distant - this is true. However, real ancient commanders would be able to command troops in such a way as - 'stay out of bowfire range' or 'don't risk an immediate clash (ie don't get in charge range). Real light horse were also probably very good at ensuring that they did not get to close to the enemy so they could not get away if the enemy charged them.

Pre measuring just means that you get to make these decisions rather than it being down to how skillfull you are at estimating 4 inches.

So, pre measure away - unless you and the people you play with decide you don't want to as no one can force you to. However, if you do ban pre measuring be aware that this does make it a different game to what everyone else is playing.

If people that you play with feel that it will make the game 'to easy', you can reasure them that there are plenty of ways to cock things up in FOG that do not involve estimating fractions of an inch. I Would recommend reading you and your friends read Madaxemans battle reports as he seems to have discovered a large amount of them.......

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:04 am

durrati wrote:If people that you play with feel that it will make the game 'to easy', you can reasure them that there are plenty of ways to cock things up in FOG that do not involve estimating fractions of an inch. I Would recommend reading you and your friends read Madaxemans battle reports as he seems to have discovered a large amount of them.......

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:37 am

durrati wrote: Pre measuring just means that you get to make these decisions rather than it being down to how skillfull you are at estimating 4 inches.

Testing visual estimation skills might make more sense if the distances involved eyeballing much longer and more challenging distances, as is sometimes done with naval battles fought on a large floor area, or in miniatures if not given sight of the table but required to use a periscope to eyeball it from the perspective of the shooter.

durrati wrote:If people that you play with feel that it will make the game 'to easy', you can reasure them that there are plenty of ways to cock things up in FOG that do not involve estimating fractions of an inch. I Would recommend reading you and your friends read Madaxemans battle reports as he seems to have discovered a large amount of them.......

I'm sure the explanation is that mistakes make good copy while technical perfection is a bore.

spikemesq · Post by **spikemesq** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:19 pm

gozerius wrote:Because there are no restrictions on measuring inherent in the game. Since you have to be "in range" to conduct charges, intercepts, shoot, etc. It would be very counterproductive to restrict pre-measuring.

This is the key.

Pre-measuring conveys no advantage in FoG. A unit is either in range of shooting or charging, or it is not. Unlike other systems, a range failure does not eliminate other actions (e.g., you cannot move because you declared a charge that could not connect, or you cannot shoot a target in range because you declared shots at another target out of range).

If you declare a charge but then determine you are not in range, the charge is canceled and that unit can do something else (e.g., maneuver, etc.). If you declare a shooting target that is out of range, the shot is canceled and, if there is an another eligible target, you can (and must) shoot that instead.

Thus, when you measure makes no difference. If you premeasure ahead of declarations shooting etc., you save the headache of declaring, canceling, taking other action.

Spike

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:46 pm

Many of us would go further. We measure and discuss the distances. Doing so makes for a much smoother game and avoids argument. Tell your opponent when you are in charge reach. Establish what can reach where and the shooting targets as soon as you move. Tell your opponent. Invite him to measure as well if there is any doubt.

It is a common custom to move only front ranks, measure, and state what you will be in range to charge next move. This allows your opponent to challenge any assumptions or the legality of a move. When you are both satisfied, move the rest of the figures to join the front rank.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:51 pm

I couldn't agree more with Roger - discussing what is and is not possible before trying to do it makes everything more transparent.

I've found that those who've been playing FOG since the beta test days tend to do this. Interestingly (and worringly?) those who are relatively new to FOG and used to other sets of rules / circumstances can be far less open and co-operative.

It's just a game - enjoy it.

pease1 · Post by **pease1** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:10 pm

Our club has a club rule that pre-measuring is allowed in all games, except the aforementioned naval games where range estimation is a core feature of the rules. We do so for all the reasons already stated here.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:24 am

And its OK to countermeasure. If someone says they are "a gnat's todger" out of range. Make sure that the entire BG actually is. Put down a marker so you don't forget. Often in the heat of battle those Gnat's todgers can be conveniently "forgotten".

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:52 am

fineredvin wrote:I played my first game on Sunday with Owain Glyndwr’s Welshmen -- but two questions came up that I could not find the answer two... one general, one specific.
General: When are you allowed (or not allowed) to measure in FOG. There seems to be nothing in the rules to indicate proper measuring decorum.
Specific: A BROKEN unit should be forced to take a cohesion test in a given turn; however, being broken that unit can go no lower on the table. Obversly, a unit cannot be rallied if it has dropped a cohesion level that turn. Does the broken unit have to roll a "check" to see if they would have dropped a level, and therefore be unable to rally -- or can they rally even though they were eligible to drop a level?

There may seem petty, but answers would help our group.

Fineredvin

On the general question I agree with the other answers that measuring helps make the rules work smoothly, and that's how competitions work. But there's nothing to say that you have to measure either, up to you guys. The only thing I would say is that most ancient units didn't need specific measurements (not that there really was accurate measurement then). The tribunes and centurions would know when to ready the charge: a few paces either way didn't matter too much. We need it because a game needs measurement.

Re the specific, No, broken units do not need to test again. Unfortunately I don't have my rules with me so can't say where that is. Even if it did, you can't drop a level from broken, so they would still be eligible to rally. What normally makes this a non issue is that you cannot rally troops who are within 6MU of the enemy.

Two Newbie Questions (Thanks for helping -- No search?)

Two Newbie Questions (Thanks for helping -- No search?)

Re: Two Newbie Questions (Thanks for helping -- No search?)