movee first or control terrain

benos · Post by **benos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:54 pm

which do you prefer to do?

obviously army choice has some bearing on this, (aztecs won't want to face lancers without some rough terrain)

but where an army can be designed to aim for one or the other (for example i'm paintng up my Mitianni, and if i take more than 24 chariots and an IC i'm aiming for terrain control) by taking 24 or less and only TC's im much more likely to get the first turn)

in the cases of armies like these which do you prefer? (might be worth stating the army you base the choice on?)

Ben

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:24 pm

I will normally choose the army based on getting control of terrain. So my armies have lots of mounted. I can then control a lot of the terrain, see all of my opponenets deployment before I deploy key troops and then see his first move to get an idea of his battle plan. Having a lot of mounted I can then react quickly to his battle plan. I do not see this as much use with such large numbers of chariots though as they are less mobile.

Getting first move has its uses if you can pin the enemy back. But in general armies that can do this have a lot but not enough quality mounted or a lot of light foot that can become unsupported due to moving too far forwards. Else they have a lot of shooty mounted with no IC to cover their shooting battle. (Though light chariots may in fact fit into this area.)

If I end up moving second I can shove a lot of quality mounted where I want and skirmish where I do not want to be, pinning the enemy well back.

benos · Post by **benos** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:01 pm

Intersting point about seeing more of the enemies deployment.
notone i had particularly considered.

i would agree to a point that getting as low as a +0 for PBI is unlikely to leave the movement options to take full advantage of the first move. the armies i thought would benifit most from this agressive option that could get it are often those who most need the IC morale bonus (lots of the blood and gold armies with no mounted and lots of medium foot that hit pretty hard) i was looking mostly at Mitianni with just under the 24 chariots and 4 TC to get +1 PBI and then send the chariots steaming in, while the filler hides.
this milage will obviousl vary compared to other armies, i wonder if a knight based force would get similar benifit (later crusaders perhaps?)

Ben

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:16 pm

This past weekend, I ran Qin with a PBI of +1. Lost every role. Thankfully so I got to move first. My army was 18 MU in before my opponent moved. That allowed me to take the battle to my oppone every time and control the tempo of the battle. Not always successfully. But I got the battle I wanted.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:20 pm

You must still be in Az then Dan, I doubt you would have been able to get out of the frontdoor back in cold Va.

I don't think it makes that much difference the terrain, certainly you have the chance to lay 2-4 terrain pieces of your own, which should give you a chance that of having something useful.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:36 pm

I run Selucids, Bactrians and soon Kushan armies. I get lots of cataphracts and in the case of Selucids lots of pikes less pikes in the Bactrians. I prefer open terrain. My opponent is Blathergut who usually runs his Romans against me. Romans will lose dice if in disordering terrain but don't lose any POA's unlike my pikes, so being a cav and heavy foot kind of army builder I prefer to get the terrain choice. Not that it always helps as Blathergut has managed to mess up my nice clean steppes with rough crap on more than one occasion.
In response to this attempt at making cluttered battlegrounds my next army is going to be Classical Indian which can take jungle, should be lots of areas to ambush from in that terrain. I will likely have to go IC just to control the undrilled masses, not much mounted though so might not get terrain pick with them.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:01 am

Also has 3 new rough pieces ready!!

(mini-sized to fit in those hard-to-fit-into places!!)

And a super-mini open space!!!

I build the army I like, regardless of terrain or first move. Given a choice, I'd take the initiative...not so much for terrain (since a lot of it can disappear on you or end up on the edges) but for having opponent place down first. This can be a huge advantage. Letting opponent have first move just gets him closer to you sooner.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:56 am

hmmm Seems the Romans have been busy digging up mother nature again. Well your mini rough terrain doesn't scare me, I can use it with the Indians in the jungle it will fit better between all those trees

I am thinking after the holiday festivities we should be able to book a game and see if all your hard work will pay off or not.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:23 am

deadtorius wrote:I run Selucids, Bactrians and soon Kushan armies. I get lots of cataphracts and in the case of Selucids lots of pikes less pikes in the Bactrians. I prefer open terrain. My opponent is Blathergut who usually runs his Romans against me. Romans will lose dice if in disordering terrain but don't lose any POA's unlike my pikes, so being a cav and heavy foot kind of army builder I prefer to get the terrain choice. Not that it always helps as Blathergut has managed to mess up my nice clean steppes with rough crap on more than one occasion.
In response to this attempt at making cluttered battlegrounds my next army is going to be Classical Indian which can take jungle, should be lots of areas to ambush from in that terrain. I will likely have to go IC just to control the undrilled masses, not much mounted though so might not get terrain pick with them.

Hey, for 72 points you can get 18 poor naked cav, another 136 points for 8 LCh and you got your 24+. Then send all the cav on a flank march and hope they don't show up.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:22 pm

Probably the main reason I have never bothered to use a flank march in any game we have played, I prefer to know that my troops will be in the battle and available to fight.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:37 pm

deadtorius wrote:Probably the main reason I have never bothered to use a flank march in any game we have played, I prefer to know that my troops will be in the battle and available to fight.

You should try it once you'd be amazed how much it can effect your opponent's game.

Dave

Cerberias · Post by **Cerberias** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:58 am

Stupid net

Cerberias · Post by **Cerberias** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:58 am

Stupid net

Cerberias · Post by **Cerberias** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:59 am

Depends on the size of the game, and how big each army is... against a large army that covers the board, having a flank march can quite easily win you the game by just rolling up the flank. Against a smaller army it could be completely useless, its all situational. Used three in four games at a doubles tourney and two of them worked very very well, one time a unit of drilled cavalry straggled, but the unit of light chariots still held the ground it was supposed to.

As dave said though, against some people even the thought of a flank march will make them completely change their strategy, sometimes its about playing mind-games with your enemy.. you might have a flank march, you pretend or drop hints that its coming from one side so they stay completely away from it, and then you bring it on the side they werent expecting it.. causing a huge ruckus.

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:28 pm

david53 wrote:
deadtorius wrote:Probably the main reason I have never bothered to use a flank march in any game we have played, I prefer to know that my troops will be in the battle and available to fight.
You should try it once you'd be amazed how much it can effect your opponent's game.

Dave

Yep, used it in all three rounds at Origins. Worked extremely well in the first tow but showed up late in the third

John

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:25 am

I have used a flank march in conjunction with an unexpected knights ambush to good effect, and there was one that disconcertingly arrived immediately, undermining the intended effect. I think it is something to be considered when the battlefield, enemy, and overall plan indicate it to be desirable and the enemy can't or won't sorely press you before its likely arrival.

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:31 am

MikeK wrote:I have used a flank march in conjunction with an unexpected knights ambush to good effect, and there was one that disconcertingly arrived immediately, undermining the intended effect. I think it is something to be considered when the battlefield, enemy, and overall plan indicate it to be desirable and the enemy can't or won't sorely press you before its likely arrival.

Wow! What kind of terrain did you hide the knightsin?

John

movee first or control terrain

movee first or control terrain

move first or terrain