Interesting. Not matter how much you test, when you release something to a large community someone always tries something that you never though of. I think this is one of those things.
Borger proposed a solution where Poland would activate if still neutral in October 1941 (at the same expected time as Russia). He made that change to the 1939.scn file and sent the prototype to the development team.
After a lot of thought I proposed that the expected entry date be set to 9/1/39 and I tested that change in my sandbox. On two trials, Poland entered at the end of 9/21/39. Which meant that Poland and Germany were at war at the start of the Axis turn 10/11/39. There were two downsides for the Germans. (1) Polish units did not suffer the 10% surprise attack efficiency hit and (2) in 1 of the 2 trials the weather was mud.
Personally, I'm conflicted with all this. It never occurred to me that someone would play a WW-II in Europe game and not attack Poland on the first turn. It takes a one line fix to a data file (i.e., 1939.scn) to force war with Poland; either by October 1941 or October 1939. Or any other date one might want. I guess the question is is this necessary? Or is this even wanted? I assume that 99.5%+ games would see Poland invaded on the first turn. Do we want to or need to make a change that forces that to 100%. If we do, then what would be the correct entry date? September 1, 1939, October 1941 or some other date.
What do you think?
GS DOW on Poland Last of the House Rules or WAD?
Moderators: firepowerjohan, rkr1958, Happycat, Slitherine Core
Given the start time of September of 1939, an attack on Poland was certain - the Germans were positioned for it and the non-aggression pact with Russia was signed. It probably makes sense that the German turn automatically starts with the German DOW on Poland. But if you aren't inclined to go that way, I'd suggest making Poland a country that can be declared war on by either the Axis or the Allies (a true neutral). I just don't see Poland joining the Allies if it could help it. I'd force the Russians to declare war on Poland if the Germans choose not to do so.
The intention of making Poland neutral was to give the Germans the advantage of a 10 percent efficiency drop applied to the Poles due to the DOW. If you change Poland's entry date to 9/1/39 then it will activate no later than the end of 9/21/39 turn; but the Poles won't suffer the 10% efficiency drop. When Poland does activate the players get a message that Germany has declared war on Poland. In effect, this change forces war between Poland and German from the start. The Axis player would be unwise not to DOW Poland if this change was implemented.ncali wrote:Given the start time of September of 1939, an attack on Poland was certain - the Germans were positioned for it and the non-aggression pact with Russia was signed. It probably makes sense that the German turn automatically starts with the German DOW on Poland. But if you aren't inclined to go that way, I'd suggest making Poland a country that can be declared war on by either the Axis or the Allies (a true neutral). I just don't see Poland joining the Allies if it could help it. I'd force the Russians to declare war on Poland if the Germans choose not to do so.
Now this brings up an interesting situation. When a game is started it's started from the 1939.data file compiled from the 1939.scn in the Axis players game file. If you as the Axis player want to start the game at war with Poland then you will DOW Poland. The 1939.data and 1939.scn files on the Allied player's machine has nothing to do with this. Providing the updated scenario file (either with a 9/1/39 or 10/41 expected entry date) would only apply if the Axis player decided to apply it. It makes no sense to me that they would apply one with a 9/1/39 expected entry date and not DOW Poland on the first turn. So if they planned to DOW Poland on the first turn there would be no need to apply it. For the 10/41 expected entry date I would hope they would only apply that file if they had agreed with the Allied player. In this case the Axis player would be unwise to let Poland activate in Oct 41 and join the Russians. We'll actually they'd be a British minor ally but would be a major impact on the eastern front.
I guess where I'm heading with all this is do we want to change anything? With what we have here players can, and probably should, agree up front if they want to play an alternate version of WW-II where Germany doesn't attack Poland in 1939. And if they agree then they could agree to when, or under what conditions, Poland should enter at which time the Axis player would DOW Poland. Again, assuming 99.5% of the players wish to start with a German attack on Poland the way we have it now allows the other 0.5% to explorer an alternate history in a fashion they see fit.
The good news to all this is that if the Axis player is one of the 0.5% of the players who want to do this and the Allied player isn't then the Allied player can decided if they wish to continue the game before they ever make a move.
It seems to me that we can leave it the way it is for now and let the players decide for themselves if they want to play a game without Germany invading Poland on the first turn.
"Interesting. Not matter how much you test, when you release something to a large community someone always tries something that you never though of. I think this is one of those things. "
Yes sir
player's being player's will try just about anything the game allow's if they think it will give them an edge. Can you imagine my surprise when my opponent didn't declare war. LOL
"It seems to me that we can leave it the way it is for now and let the players decide for themselves if they want to play a game without Germany invading Poland on the first turn."
Hence the title of the post, Last of the House rules.
Yes sir
player's being player's will try just about anything the game allow's if they think it will give them an edge. Can you imagine my surprise when my opponent didn't declare war. LOL"It seems to me that we can leave it the way it is for now and let the players decide for themselves if they want to play a game without Germany invading Poland on the first turn."
Hence the title of the post, Last of the House rules.
Hold on a second here...
If Hitler had not attacked Poland, it is NOT likely that Stalin would have attacked Poland himself. Remember the two following important factors.
1) Stalin did not expect the German attack in 1941. Rather he hoped that the Western Allies would tear each other apart leaving the communists to pick up the pieces. After all this is what Marxism predicted for the Capitalists.
2) Stalin wanted to use Poland as a buffer zone to protect Russia from the West. The Nazi-Soviet pact was in Stalin's eyes, giving Russia a buffer zone against the approaching Germans (otherwise the Germans would have taken all of Poland).
So in the case where Hitler did not attack Poland, Stalin would have had no interest in attacking Poland himself and creating a situation where the Germans and the West would have perceived Russia as the common enemy (which is what Hitler wanted).
It IS true that Stalin considered war with Germany inevitable, but this was mostly because Hitler made it clear in Mein Kampf that his main objective was taking the land of the Poles and Soviets up to the Urals.
So in 1939 and even 1941 Stalin was playing for time, because both he and Hitler knew that time was on the side of the Soviets, who had the resources to increase their military capability faster than the Germans.
In sum, the most probable result of Hitler's not attacking Poland in 1939 would have been that there would have been no war (until or unless Hitler decided to attack somewhere else, which would certainly not have been France nor England).
As a result I agree that the game should force the German attack on Poland, although I think that the gamey tactic of not attacking Poland raises interesting game possibilities. Other games begin the 1939 scenario with Poland and Germany already at war, which is the way it should be in a WW2 game.
Henri
If Hitler had not attacked Poland, it is NOT likely that Stalin would have attacked Poland himself. Remember the two following important factors.
1) Stalin did not expect the German attack in 1941. Rather he hoped that the Western Allies would tear each other apart leaving the communists to pick up the pieces. After all this is what Marxism predicted for the Capitalists.
2) Stalin wanted to use Poland as a buffer zone to protect Russia from the West. The Nazi-Soviet pact was in Stalin's eyes, giving Russia a buffer zone against the approaching Germans (otherwise the Germans would have taken all of Poland).
So in the case where Hitler did not attack Poland, Stalin would have had no interest in attacking Poland himself and creating a situation where the Germans and the West would have perceived Russia as the common enemy (which is what Hitler wanted).
It IS true that Stalin considered war with Germany inevitable, but this was mostly because Hitler made it clear in Mein Kampf that his main objective was taking the land of the Poles and Soviets up to the Urals.
So in 1939 and even 1941 Stalin was playing for time, because both he and Hitler knew that time was on the side of the Soviets, who had the resources to increase their military capability faster than the Germans.
In sum, the most probable result of Hitler's not attacking Poland in 1939 would have been that there would have been no war (until or unless Hitler decided to attack somewhere else, which would certainly not have been France nor England).
As a result I agree that the game should force the German attack on Poland, although I think that the gamey tactic of not attacking Poland raises interesting game possibilities. Other games begin the 1939 scenario with Poland and Germany already at war, which is the way it should be in a WW2 game.
Henri
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KingHunter3059
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Whew!
I am glad we changed this. However, If Germany committs minimal forces to Poland, then the France Blitzkreig is on. I got my hind end handed to me by Dark Matter this way. I lost France in Feb of 1940.
Re: Whew!
I don't understand: do you mean that you did not attack Poland but kept your German forces in the West, and that you tried an early Blitzkrieg on France and got your ass whopped by the French?KingHunter wrote:I am glad we changed this. However, If Germany committs minimal forces to Poland, then the France Blitzkreig is on. I got my hind end handed to me by Dark Matter this way. I lost France in Feb of 1940.
If so, this wold seem to imply that the German/French ratio of forces was smaller in 1939 than in 1940?
henri
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Peter Stauffenberg
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No. he said he lost France (not lost to France) by February. So Germany entered Paris in February 1940.
We've now changed the 1939 scenario so Poland will activate in September 1939 unless Germany first DoW Poland. This way you better do the DoW or you won't get the 10 efficiency drop on Polish forces due to the surprise attack.
We have to remember that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was already signed in August 1940 (before the game starts). According to this pact the Russians will get eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia. Germany had fought hard to get this treaty so they could take out Poland and deal with the western Allies without having to fear Russian intervention. It's not likely the Germans would break the treaty and not attack Poland as they said. Then all they gained would have been in vain.
CeaW is in a dilemma if the Germans don't attack Poland. Russian units are already inside Eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia as if the treaty had taken place.
We've now changed the 1939 scenario so Poland will activate in September 1939 unless Germany first DoW Poland. This way you better do the DoW or you won't get the 10 efficiency drop on Polish forces due to the surprise attack.
We have to remember that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was already signed in August 1940 (before the game starts). According to this pact the Russians will get eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia. Germany had fought hard to get this treaty so they could take out Poland and deal with the western Allies without having to fear Russian intervention. It's not likely the Germans would break the treaty and not attack Poland as they said. Then all they gained would have been in vain.
CeaW is in a dilemma if the Germans don't attack Poland. Russian units are already inside Eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Bessarabia as if the treaty had taken place.