milanese

[benos]

Well having run a few test games for the battle of Arbedo (milan vs swiss...the battle that encouraged the swiss to go pike heavy) ready to do a demo game for the lance and longbow society at cavalier next year we have run into a few things to work through.

firstly i'm not sure the troop types work for this battle, but without enough time to work out an alternative we will be going with the lists as is (i suspect for this battle only the swiss halberdiers should be offensive spear...but for this particular attle only) but more importantly we could do with some tactical tips for the milanese. the swiss are pretty easy to use (though they usually loose the skirmishers the big pike and halberd groups tough it out nicely) the milanese seem to struggle they have about 18 bases of knights , some mounted crossbows, lots of foot crossbows and sword and bucklar men (i did take the light artillery but mostly as filler/camp guard bg) and can take some florentines as allies (well i have the figs, and we might bend the history a little to add more intersting troops.

so any advice on how to get the milanese to compete with the swiss (especially as they should have won this battle but for the swiss reserve looking bigger than it was )

Ben

[gozerius]

Drag the artillery up with the crossbows. It's the only thing that has a prayer of disrupting the Swiss. Once they are disrupted, charge with the knights and hope for the best.

[hazelbark]

Drag the artillery up with the crossbows. It's the only thing that has a prayer of disrupting the Swiss. Once they are disrupted, charge with the knights and hope for the best.

I think once they are disrupted the math changes radically. At that point the Knights are what - POA at impact with more dice. Chances are the KN don't disrupt and stay stuck in in melee with an extra dice on even POA. If the KN when then the Pike are in trouble -1 disrupted, -1 losing to lance if impact, -1 for HPB. Even assuming you don't get a -1 for more than 2 hits, it makes it easy for the pike to drop a level. Then when frag'd they are toast.

Overlaps matter.


Yep Just guarantee the Pikes are disrupted that should work.

THe KN player should consider attacking through uneven. It hurts the Pike worse.

[deadtorius]

Overlaps are the biggest enemy of pike blocks. Only being 4 wide makes it easy to get the overlap and the extra dice can make the difference between winning and losing, forcing pikes to constantly test means that eventually they will likely fail a CT and then it gets dicey. Once they are fragged it would take a pike miracle to keep them from the graveyard.

[benos]

what about the big halberdier blocks

since we are fighting Arbedo (1422) the swiss get some 8-12 base heavy weapon blocks. these have proven at least as tough as the pike ?

Ben

[gozerius]

Yes, but they are more vulnerable to the knights in the open.

[ethan]

Drag the artillery up with the crossbows. It's the only thing that has a prayer of disrupting the Swiss. Once they are disrupted, charge with the knights and hope for the best.

I think once they are disrupted the math changes radically. At that point the Knights are what - POA at impact with more dice. Chances are the KN don't disrupt and stay stuck in in melee with an extra dice on even POA.

The knights probably win impact in this scenario..

Let's assume 4 files of pikes (so 8 dice down to 6 for disrupted) hitting on 4s is an average of 3 hits.

Knights get 8 dice (superior) hitting on 5s which is so get 1/3+1/12 hits per die or 8/3+8/12 = 10/3 =3 1/3hits.

Going through uneven/rgo to get the pike is trickier though.

The pikes still get 3 hits on average.

The knights get 6*(1/3 + 1/12) = 6/3 + 6/12 = 2.5 hits so probalby lose impact and have a 50-50 chance of losing a base (plus any morale impacts, although dropping on level won't change the melee). If the knights lose a base they are probably finished, so on net this is probably a loser for the knights.

Btw, I find this generally true for knights (and chariots) if you lose that base in impact it is very hard to recover - almost impossible if you are also disrupted/disorded as you go form 8 dice to 4 and losing 50% of your fighting power at impact is not easy to dice your way out of...

[DrQuahog]

Yes, but they are more vulnerable to the knights in the open.

This is the conundrum of Arbedo, historically.
'Common knowledge' has it that the Swiss switched from primarily halberd to primarily pike after the defeat at Arbedo, because halberdiers could not stand up to the charge of mounted knights.
Yet Carmagnola did not try to charge the halberds with mounted knights- he dismounted them, having them use their superior armor and lances as a longer reach weapon to outfight the halberds.
So the wargaming lesson of this encounter,supposedly that halberdiers in the open are vulnerable to mounted knights, is actually just the opposite.

[gozerius]

I'm not sure about Arbedo, but at Sempach, the knights dismounted because the Swiss were defending a steep hill, a routine tactic for the Swiss. Mounted would be at a severe disadvantage, so dismounting was the prudent thing to do.

[benos]

the problem with arbedo is the only advantage the milanese get is thier armour. This doesn.t help against heavy weapon. So for italian knights there is not reason to dismount against swiss haalberdiers. I am begiming to think if the early swiss halberdiers were off spear instead of heavy weapon then arbedo will work better?
Ben

[ShrubMiK]

Yes, but they are more vulnerable to the knights in the open.

This is the conundrum of Arbedo, historically.
'Common knowledge' has it that the Swiss switched from primarily halberd to primarily pike after the defeat at Arbedo, because halberdiers could not stand up to the charge of mounted knights.
Yet Carmagnola did not try to charge the halberds with mounted knights- he dismounted them, having them use their superior armor and lances as a longer reach weapon to outfight the halberds.
So the wargaming lesson of this encounter,supposedly that halberdiers in the open are vulnerable to mounted knights, is actually just the opposite.

This particular historical example says nothing directly about whether "halberdiers in the open were vulnerable to mounted knights". The conclusion you can draw is that a particualr general believed that attacking them on foot was more likely to be successful than attacking mounted. Inventing some extrem numbers just for the sake of argument, if the knights had a 75% of defeating the halberdiers attacking mounted, but a 90% chance if attacking on foot (yes I know these numbers are not very likely to be realistic ), then his decision would be justified. And it would be hard to argue that losing 3 times in 4 didn't represent "vulnerability" against the mounted attack.

Also note the quote was "more vulnerable", not just "vulnerable". Again inventing numbers, if pike would win 90% of the time against knights attacking mounted, and halberdiers 80% of the time, the halberdiers are "more vulnerable", but not "vulnerable" in absolute terms.

[DrQuahog]

This particular historical example says nothing directly about whether "halberdiers in the open were vulnerable to mounted knights". The conclusion you can draw is that a particualr general believed that attacking them on foot was more likely to be successful than attacking mounted. Inventing some extrem numbers just for the sake of argument, if the knights had a 75% of defeating the halberdiers attacking mounted, but a 90% chance if attacking on foot (yes I know these numbers are not very likely to be realistic ), then his decision would be justified. And it would be hard to argue that losing 3 times in 4 didn't represent "vulnerability" against the mounted attack.

Also note the quote was "more vulnerable", not just "vulnerable". Again inventing numbers, if pike would win 90% of the time against knights attacking mounted, and halberdiers 80% of the time, the halberdiers are "more vulnerable", but not "vulnerable" in absolute terms.

OK - so why DID the Swiss switch from their 'national weapon' to being mostly pike?
Lots of disadvantages - training, deep formations wasteful of manpower, problems in woods and rough ground (think of Morat) etc.
And no, I don't have the answer- but the traditional answer , that after the defeat at Arbedo they decided that the halberd couldn't stand up to the mounted knight, is a curiosity.

[DrQuahog]

And yes, I know. 'Belongs in the history section.'
(Preemptive strike.)

[benos]

ok ive put a post up in player designed lists section on the swiss to look at other interpretations.
The descriptions i have read so far not extensive but nonetheless state the swiss were loosing to the milanese dismounted knights. For reasons of a. Better armour and b because the knights lances used as spears outreached the swiss halberds. This just doesn.t work in fog at the moment. For such a pivotal battle the italians dont have much of a chance when trying to follow historical tactics. The swiss pike should still be a bit better against foot knights but the halberdiers are too good vs foot knights while too poor vs the mounted for arbedo. I think offensive spears will be better for this reefight.
Now i just need to get enough time to try it out.
Ben

[gozerius]

At Sempach and again at Arbedo, the knightly opponent outnumbered the initial Swiss force. The swiss tended to set up a blocking position against an invading army, then attack the army from the flank while the enemy was preoccupied to the front. A small force usually defending fortifications or favorable terrain would draw the leading elements of the opposing force into the trap. The stereotypical response was a rush to overwhelm the outnumbered defenders. Then the rest of the Swiss forces would appear and in the ensuing chaos of trying to counter the new threat the enemy would be chopped to pieces piecemeal and routed. It makes sense to dismount if the Swiss are in fortifications and or bad going because you can then fight at less disadvantage than if trying to fight mounted. Remember that the Swis at Arbedo were outnumbered, and the arrival of a small foraging party was enough to cause the Milanese attack to come unglued.

As the Swiss became more expansionistic, their tactics had to evolve to deal with fighting mounted in the open because as an attacker, they couldn't guarantee a favorable home field advantage.

[benos]

ok so in terms of getting the game to work ok. We should a:give the swiss some fortifications and b: give the italians extra troops?
No problem with either apart from having more painting to do for the show. (end of feb in tonbridge fyi)
will see if i get enough painted

ben