French at Agincourt

LambertSimnel · Post by **LambertSimnel** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:29 am

I have been trying to put together a Medieval French list based upon the battle of Agincourt as interpreted by Alfred Burne in his book The Agincourt War, but he implies there would have been more bad mounted in the third line than the six bases of valets de guerre that the Medieval French list allows.

So what's up? Is Lt-Col Burne wrong about the number of mounted in the third line? Were the third line mounted better than they sound so should be graded as Average Knights? Or could it even be that there a problem with the army list?

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:47 am

Or could it be that the army lists are a general guide, used for putting together representative armies for equal-points battles, and not intended to be slavishly followed for recreating specific historical scenarios?

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:32 pm

This is probably a proportions thing. If we consider the numbers of Knights at Agincourt how many bases would that equate to?

If we consider that there was about 8 000 Knights in the first line and a similar number in the second line, along with the cavalry wings of around 2 000, then there were probably only around 4 000 "Knights" in the third line. This would give a ratio of 4:1.

Given that in the Medieval French list you are allowed a maximum of 24 knights and 6 Valets du Guerre, then this too comes in (astonishingly) at a ratio of 4:1.

All figures from Heath - "Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1"

However, I would suspect that the Valets du Guerre would best represent the Cavalry wings (2 300) and that average knights would be used for the thirdline as they were those left behind and melted away before a blow was struck.

Or:

4 BG's Superior Knights (first and second line - two BG's in each)
1 BG Average Knights (third line)
1 BG Valets du Guerre (cavalry wings)

Because the lists are designed to be around 800 points then unfortunately you can't split the Cavalry into two BG's - if you are doing a scenario then probably you could allow two BG's of four of Valets rather than just a maximum of six.

LambertSimnel · Post by **LambertSimnel** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:36 pm

dave_r wrote:This is probably a proportions thing. If we consider the numbers of Knights at Agincourt how many bases would that equate to?

If we consider that there was about 8 000 Knights in the first line and a similar number in the second line, along with the cavalry wings of around 2 000, then there were probably only around 4 000 "Knights" in the third line. This would give a ratio of 4:1.

Given that in the Medieval French list you are allowed a maximum of 24 knights and 6 Valets du Guerre, then this too comes in (astonishingly) at a ratio of 4:1.

All figures from Heath - "Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1"

However, I would suspect that the Valets du Guerre would best represent the Cavalry wings (2 300) and that average knights would be used for the thirdline as they were those left behind and melted away before a blow was struck.

Or:

4 BG's Superior Knights (first and second line - two BG's in each)
1 BG Average Knights (third line)
1 BG Valets du Guerre (cavalry wings)

Because the lists are designed to be around 800 points then unfortunately you can't split the Cavalry into two BG's - if you are doing a scenario then probably you could allow two BG's of four of Valets rather than just a maximum of six.

I was about to say 'but you'd have to be an idiot to dismount your Superior Knights and leave your Average Knights mounted' until I remembered who the generals that made that decision were.