Worst Value Unit so far..

[spike]

I think Tim forgot to set up the following option in his poll

3- Tim's talking of of his arse, there's far worse rubbish out there than DSp/Bw!



Spike

[JEFFEDBOB]

The militia pavisiers in the Condotta Italian 3 poor defensive spear, 3 poor crossbow

[azrael86]

The militia pavisiers in the Condotta Italian 3 poor defensive spear, 3 poor crossbow

I just selected them under Sicilian.... Still at least you get to shoot before you run away....

[gozerius]

But the Classics are protected.

[timmy1]

[quote="philqw78"]They broke a unit of Longbow in the last game I used them. They did get crushed by some Nellies in the game before that though. BG of 8 are good because they can go 4 deep AND get 3rd rank bow shot at impact. Not quite as good as the Varangians though. They can fight three BG at the same time and win.

But I refuse to vote in this obviously biased poll.[/quote]

So Phil you just create biased polls, not vote in them. What if either of the options had "and because I hate Hammy / it's all Hammy's fault / Hammy is stupid" appended, would that have brought you off the fence?

[hammy]

They broke a unit of Longbow in the last game I used them. They did get crushed by some Nellies in the game before that though. BG of 8 are good because they can go 4 deep AND get 3rd rank bow shot at impact. Not quite as good as the Varangians though. They can fight three BG at the same time and win.

But I refuse to vote in this obviously biased poll.

So Phil you just create biased polls, not vote in them. What if either of the options had "and because I hate Hammy / it's all Hammy's fault / Hammy is stupid" appended, would that have brought you off the fence?

Actually Tim created the poll and I suspect Phil thinks he missed out the "pardon, there is nothing wrong with them if you actually read the rules properly" option.

[timmy1]

Hammy

I suspected as much but Phil has apparently been accused of leading the witness in a prior poll - I voted and can't remember any slant to the questions, so was seeing what it took to get Phil's attention?

[ravenflight]

I'm wondering if Communal Italian & Byzantine mixed spear & bow units are the worst value units in any book so far?

No way, they are far from useless... they are one of the more effective 'anti mounted' units you can buy. They cost basically nothing (in comparison to the troops they are fighting) and administer some decent punch.

Consider:

They shoot at reasonably good effect vs knights (5 or 6 for a hit - you only need 2 hits to cause a test), so the knights are going to HAVE to charge eventually or get shot up, and you're going to get two blats at the knights as they move up - one at reasonably poor chances and one at reasonably good chances of causing a test.
On impact the knights get no POA and 2 dice at evens. The Spear get no POA and 2 dice at evens PLUS they get additional dice to give them a chance to inflict a coup de grace.

Personally, I don't know what your complaint is. They aren't shock dismounted heavily armoured knights, but you're not paying for them as such.

[madaxeman]

I'm wondering if Communal Italian & Byzantine mixed spear & bow units are the worst value units in any book so far?

No way, they are far from useless... they are one of the more effective 'anti mounted' units you can buy. They cost basically nothing (in comparison to the troops they are fighting) and administer some decent punch.

Consider:

They shoot at reasonably good effect vs knights (5 or 6 for a hit - you only need 2 hits to cause a test), so the knights are going to HAVE to charge eventually or get shot up, and you're going to get two blats at the knights as they move up - one at reasonably poor chances and one at reasonably good chances of causing a test.
On impact the knights get no POA and 2 dice at evens. The Spear get no POA and 2 dice at evens PLUS they get additional dice to give them a chance to inflict a coup de grace.

Personally, I don't know what your complaint is. They aren't shock dismounted heavily armoured knights, but you're not

paying for them as such.

Knights still have to charge anything. Like, 2 ranks of def spear for example. And 2 ranks of spear will be a factor up at impact, and a factor better off than a mixed unit in melee too.

Troops who get 3 dice with a 1in3 chance of causing hits on knights, and then are evens at impact and down in melee don't strike me as ideal anti mounted at all. 2 ranks of spear are much better for the same points.

[flamingpig0]

Isn't threatening dissidents with ECT a little Soviet?

[philqw78]

So Phil you just create biased polls, not vote in them. What if either of the options had "and because I hate Hammy / it's all Hammy's fault / Hammy is stupid" appended, would that have brought you off the fence?

There'a a fence?

[hammy]

Knights still have to charge anything. Like, 2 ranks of def spear for example. And 2 ranks of spear will be a factor up at impact, and a factor better off than a mixed unit in melee too.

Troops who get 3 dice with a 1in3 chance of causing hits on knights, and then are evens at impact and down in melee don't strike me as ideal anti mounted at all. 2 ranks of spear are much better for the same points.

Two ranks of real spears are indeed better against knights but 2 ranks of real spears are an awful lot worse than the mixed formation against any mounted with shooting capabilities.

A BG of 8 Skutatoi needs 3 hits to have to take a CT, delivers 4 dice of shooting and is tough against mounted. 8 spears will just get shot at and then shot at some more and then probably shot at again without being able to respond.

A pure bow formation will get more shooting dice against shooty mounted but will be cut to pieces by most shooty cavalry in melee.

You pays your points and makes your choice.

[caliban66]

I think they are good against mounted enemies. Byzantines made huge efforts to fight enemies highly focused on cavalry tactics (bulgars, Turks, Arabs...), so it make sense. They deny lancer and Swordmen POA´s, while adding a rear rank attack during impact phase. Bad combination against infantry, in any case, but historically accurate.
I think the worse is MF/undrilled/light spear. It cost as much as an LF bowmen, move much less and in a much more restricted manner, and is pure rubbish in CC. And it´s very common in many lists, and in many different eras.
On the other hand, I find Armoured/Def. Spearmen from Khurasan, at 8 pts, a true "phantom menace".

[khurasan_miniatures]

On the other hand, I find Armoured/Def. Spearmen from Khurasan, at 8 pts, a true "phantom menace".

Do you mean the region, or the company?

And is being a phantom menace good, or bad? I'm too old to understand the new movies.

[caliban66]

On the other hand, I find Armoured/Def. Spearmen from Khurasan, at 8 pts, a true "phantom menace".

Do you mean the region, or the company?

And is being a phantom menace good, or bad? I'm too old to understand the new movies.

Oh, the khurasanian dynastic army, I mean. And by phantom menace I mean a very very very good troop for a few points. It may deal hand to hand even with Armoured/IF/Swordmen/Ultraviolent Dailami being, at least, 20% cheaper.