Break Off Move distances

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:47 pm

Had an interesting situation occur last night.

A BG of Knights (4 stands: 3 in front and one behind) charges/impacts two opporing BGs. Hits an oppoing Knight BG with two stands, then steps forward 1 MU into an opposing MF/Spear unit. After impact, no losses on the charging Knight BG, and it expands a the rear base into the MF/Spear BG. After melee, the original charges lose a base against the opposing Knights (Now has one base in contact with opposing Knights and two bases in contact with opposing steady foot). Original charger now must Break Off since half (or more) of opponents are steady foot.

Everything is fine so far.

Question is; From what point is the break off measured? From the point of original impact with opposing Knights or the 1 MU deeper point of impact (in which the Knights stepped forward) with the Foot. Not normally a big deal, but if the point of measure is from the foot, then it can move at least 1 MU back and not lose a cohesive level, if from the Knights, it can't and drops.

We played the distance from the foot, reasoning that that was what was causing the Break Off. But, the rules did not really say and it was just a rational guess. We were fine either way, just wanted to know if it was done correctly.

thanks,
Bill

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:05 am

I break off to a point which will reach the furthest forward enemy BG. That way when I charge I step forward into the other again.

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:29 am

Oops - just noticed that Ethan had already asked this question (we were playing last night). Sorry for the repetition.

Bill

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:35 pm

Reforming occurs in the manouvre phase. I would suggest each breaking off base moves back as far as permitted and any reforming of the stepped battle group will happen next bound as per the reforming rules.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:37 pm

rogerg wrote:Reforming occurs in the manouvre phase. I would suggest each breaking off base moves back as far as permitted and any reforming of the stepped battle group will happen next bound as per the reforming rules.

I think this is correct.

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:14 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
rogerg wrote:Reforming occurs in the manouvre phase. I would suggest each breaking off base moves back as far as permitted and any reforming of the stepped battle group will happen next bound as per the reforming rules.

I think this is correct.

"... the battle group ends the break off move seperated from its opponent by a full normal move, facing them,
in a permitted formation of the same frontage as before".

Depends if you count a staggered formation as a permitted formation. The "of the same frontage as before"
would possibly imply some reforming is allowed.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:45 pm

The formation must be permitted because reforming is allowed later. If the staggered formation was not permitted then the reform in the next manouvre phase rule would be redundant.

spikemesq · Post by **spikemesq** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:51 pm

Two points:

First, a formation that is legal in close combat may not be legal out of combat because other than close combat, the front rank must be => to rear ranks. So, a 4-stand BG of Cv may be staggered in combat but that same formation would not be valid as a moving BG.

The cited rule says that break-offs must end with equal frontage. Query whether "frontage" means (a) BG width; or (b) front rank width. In non combat formations (a) and (b) might be legitimately not equal. Out side of combat, (a) and (b) are always equal.

Second, what does the rule say about the 1 MU breakoff exactly? If the final position of the breakoff must end no closer than 1 MU from any contacted enemy, then the scenario seems to leave the Kn SOL. If just the steady foot, maybe not, but would the Kn breakoff from some enemy and remain in contact with others? That seems odd.

Spike

Breakoffs are almost as fun as Impact Phase.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:22 am

Conforming is my baby.

bertalucci · Post by **bertalucci** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:10 am

FWIW As the knights moved faster to contact the foot they presumably could also move faster to break off so.....
I would measure from the rearmost frontrank figure i.e. the element fighting the other knights.

bertalucci · Post by **bertalucci** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:23 am

Sorry

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:06 am

rogerg wrote:The formation must be permitted because reforming is allowed later. If the staggered formation was not permitted then the reform in the next manouvre phase rule would be redundant.

Your reasoning is somewhat cyclical!

There are many occasions on which reforming may be needed.

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:13 am

I would tend to assume that, since the rule does not explicitly say that only some of the bases need to end at least 1MU back from enemy, the default interpretation is that all bases in the BG should do so.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:45 pm

The rules say if you can't move back at least 1 MU in a break off you will lose a cohesion level.
Which means it all goes back to where do you measure from, I would say whoever is farthest forward is the break off point, so you would measure from the foot troops.
As for reforming it states in the break off section that at the end of the break off you are in a position to charge again the next turn which you could not do if you had to spend a turn reforming so looks like you have to end in a nice straight line. The stands facing the knights would end up moving less to end up in line with the stands facing the foot unit.