press forward and charging second rank in frontal charge

domblas · Post by **domblas** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:56 pm

dear Fogger,

had a doubt last friday. One of my BG (4 bases in 2 x 2) charged frontally a BG of my opponent (2x2) . But we were not face to face, only half of one file in front to front. so i managed to pivot a bit. and so when i hit the front corner of my oponnent BG, i can press forward with the other front base to contact his second rank base.

question are:

how many bases fight? 2 each, one each?
if the answer is 2 bases each, is the second rank base considered to have a rear support (if it exist) or be in 2 rank deep for spearmens or be in 4 rank deep for pikes?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:39 pm

If the 2 charging bases contacted two different enemy bases 2 bases on each side fight. If there is a charge where sides have an unequal number of bases at impact the player with most bases in contact decides which one fights. As both sides must fight with an equal number of bases at impact.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:09 pm

P57 "A charge which does not qualify as a flank or rear charge can still contact the flank edge of an enemy base, ......, and is treated as a normal charge on the enemy front"

The second rank base does indeed fight and does so with the same POAs as the front rank

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:21 am

But what if the third rank can support shoot? does the defending player get to choose which base is supported? It only adds one die (losing 1 per 2). Obviously, a second rank shooter cannot support shoot if it is itself contacted.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:55 am

If second and even if the third rank was contacted (if) it counts as a frontal contact and it gets a support shooting dice. Don't know who from, but again prevents a bit of cheese.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:52 am

gozerius wrote:But what if the third rank can support shoot? does the defending player get to choose which base is supported? It only adds one die (losing 1 per 2). Obviously, a second rank shooter cannot support shoot if it is itself contacted.

"Treated as a normal charge on the enemy's front"

To me that does rather indicate that it is exactly the same as charging the front of the BG so counts rear rank bases and support shooting.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:55 pm

hammy wrote:
gozerius wrote:But what if the third rank can support shoot? does the defending player get to choose which base is supported? It only adds one die (losing 1 per 2). Obviously, a second rank shooter cannot support shoot if it is itself contacted.
"Treated as a normal charge on the enemy's front"

To me that does rather indicate that it is exactly the same as charging the front of the BG so counts rear rank bases and support shooting.

So if you hit the first, second and third ranks, the third rank support shoots three times?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:19 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
hammy wrote:
gozerius wrote:But what if the third rank can support shoot? does the defending player get to choose which base is supported? It only adds one die (losing 1 per 2). Obviously, a second rank shooter cannot support shoot if it is itself contacted.
"Treated as a normal charge on the enemy's front"

To me that does rather indicate that it is exactly the same as charging the front of the BG so counts rear rank bases and support shooting.
So if you hit the first, second and third ranks, the third rank support shoots three times?

If it was possible to hit the 3 bases with 3 different enemy bases without it being a legal flank charge, Yes. Impact dice and POA's for the foot bow took this into account when they were made up/invented/dreamed up/whatever scientific method they used. Just the same as if the front 2 ranks were Def Spear the 3rd rank would also be Def Sp 2 ranks deep supported by itself. Its exactly the same as hitting the front to stop cheesy angled charges.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:39 pm

I can't think of any way that you could align a charge so as to hit all three ranks with three different charging bases.

As Phil pointed out the rules as they are prevent sleaze such as charging into the edges of the 3rd or 4th rank of a pike block to stop the pikes getting any POA.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:53 pm

hammy wrote:I can't think of any way that you could align a charge so as to hit all three ranks with three different charging bases.

I think its possible with three ranks of the japanese MF that are based alternate 30mm then 20mm deep if the first and third are 30mm. And is for cav and chariots but thats irrelevantt to this thread

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:01 pm

Thinking about the third rank shooting several times is not helpful. There is a fight, resolved as if three front rank bases had been contacted. As only one file is contacted, the factors are calculated for this file. We've had this discussion elsewhere.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:37 pm

philqw78 wrote:
hammy wrote:I can't think of any way that you could align a charge so as to hit all three ranks with three different charging bases.
I think its possible with three ranks of the japanese MF that are based alternate 30mm then 20mm deep if the first and third are 30mm. And is for cav and chariots but thats irrelevantt to this thread

But the Japanese MF are bow* so don't get support shooting anyway so that is irrelevant too.

It is possible to get three charging bases to contact the edge of a three deep BG but not to get three bases from the charged BG to be contacted.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:34 am

rogerg wrote:Thinking about the third rank shooting several times is not helpful. There is a fight, resolved as if three front rank bases had been contacted. As only one file is contacted, the factors are calculated for this file. We've had this discussion elsewhere.

You are right. Each base contacted fights as if it is a front rank base, using the POAs of the actual front rank base. Then any uncontacted base that is eligible to support shoot will add its die to the total, subject to reduction if LF. A support shooter will not roll a support die for each base in the file contacted. And cannot support shoot if fighting.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:00 am

gozerius wrote:You are right. Each base contacted fights as if it is a front rank base, using the POAs of the actual front rank base. Then any uncontacted base that is eligible to support shoot will add its die to the total, subject to reduction if LF. A support shooter will not roll a support die for each base in the file contacted. And cannot support shoot if fighting.

You are wrong, yes it can and yes it does.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:45 am

Perhaps my post was misleading. The factors are calculated as if one base had contacted the front base of the file in a straight ahead contact. Second ranks and support shooting have the normal effect. One file is in contact, but nine dice may be rolled if three bases are contacted, six fighting, three MF shooting in support (two if LF). Other than counting the number of bases of each side in contact, the fact that second or third rank bases are touched is irrelevant.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:52 pm

hammy wrote:I can't think of any way that you could align a charge so as to hit all three ranks with three different charging bases.

I'm pretty sure it's possible if you charge with two different BGs, using a column of Cav to hit the third rank.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:46 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
hammy wrote:I can't think of any way that you could align a charge so as to hit all three ranks with three different charging bases.
I'm pretty sure it's possible if you charge with two different BGs, using a column of Cav to hit the third rank.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that one.

Bear in mind that the frontal charge will end up with one base in contact with the front corner of the charged BG and a second file will step forwards and hit the second base so:

I suppose a BG of cavalry or light horse could probably manage to charge with a wheel to get past the other charging BG but it would not be a common situation

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:18 am

philqw78 wrote:
gozerius wrote:You are right. Each base contacted fights as if it is a front rank base, using the POAs of the actual front rank base. Then any uncontacted base that is eligible to support shoot will add its die to the total, subject to reduction if LF. A support shooter will not roll a support die for each base in the file contacted. And cannot support shoot if fighting.
You are wrong, yes it can and yes it does.

I see no justification to allow a base to contribute more dice to an impact combat than allowed on the Impact Phase Dice chart. If a base is fighting another base it counts as a "front rank base". If it is in a second or third rank bow or crossbow armed, and not fighting, and it is behind a base that is, it may be able to contribute a die to the total of that BG's impact dice. Any suggestion that a base can support shoot for multiple bases, including itself, is NOT supported by the rules for impact dicing, and I reject it out of hand.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:14 am

gozerius wrote: I see no justification to allow a base to contribute more dice to an impact combat than allowed on the Impact Phase Dice chart.

Which adds dice for bases behind the front rank support shooting

gozerius wrote:If a base is fighting another base it counts as a "front rank base".

In most circumstances. But contact on a flank that does not count as a legal flank charge is treated as if contact on the front rank. Therefore those contacted on the flank are not fighting, the base(s) in front of them are. Then when they conform all chargers conform to the front.

gozerius wrote:If it is in a second or third rank bow or crossbow armed, and not fighting, and it is behind a base that is, it may be able to contribute a die to the total of that BG's impact dice. Any suggestion that a base can support shoot for multiple bases, including itself, is NOT supported by the rules for impact dicing, and I reject it out of hand.

Do what you want where you live. But they are shooting from behind the front rank base, not fighting themselves.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:16 am

gozerius wrote:I see no justification to allow a base to contribute more dice to an impact combat than allowed on the Impact Phase Dice chart. If a base is fighting another base it counts as a "front rank base". If it is in a second or third rank bow or crossbow armed, and not fighting, and it is behind a base that is, it may be able to contribute a die to the total of that BG's impact dice. Any suggestion that a base can support shoot for multiple bases, including itself, is NOT supported by the rules for impact dicing, and I reject it out of hand.

Well the rules do state that bases contaced fight as if they are the front rank.

If you want to play it your way expect to find players engineering charges so that they hit corners of BGs at funny angles to gain advantage. IMO this is cheese which should (and in the FoG rules has mainly) be legislated against.