Internal overlap

[hammy]

This situation occured in a game I played earlier this week.



Light blue are a BG of warband who were hit in the flank while in a single element column and then turned.
Dark blue are a BG of chariots who have been charged by two of my BGs
Red are a BG of lancers
Pink are some girly light horse bow swordsmen.

The end base of the chariot BG has turned to face the rear charge but the rest of the chariots are facing forwards (actually I think the light horse may have been only in contact with the end base but I can't be bothered redoing the diagram at present).

In the melee I believe that the warband will get 4 dice on the lancers and the chariots will get only 2 plus 2 against the light horse. The two 'spare' files of blue troops being internal overlaps and the only possible overlap on the right flank of the lancers having been turned to fight the light horse.

My opponent thought that ne might get a lot more dice in the melee as he had potentially 5 files that could fight my lancers.

[nikgaukroger]

I think you were correct - but can't be bothered to actually look it up

[SirGarnet]

Need more cool diagrams like this in the rule book! Perhaps this should be part of the FOG Umpire's exam?

The internal overlap rule on p86 is that a BG "can only be overlapped by one file at each end of any of its four edges." So it is a maximum of one overlap per corner if an overlap is possible.

The rule on fighting as conformed on the same page says to me that each lancer front rank base would face a file and an overlap from the opponent contacting it if the LH were not there and conforming was possible, but not from the enemy end base at the top of the diagram since it would be fighting the other front rank lancer if it had been able to conform. .

So my hypothesis is that the lancer on the left fights the file in contact and its right-hand neighboring file as an overlap. The lancer on the right fights the base in contact and there is no overlap because the base that would have overlapped if the chariots could conform has been turned to face the other way.

In each case the top bases of the warband and chariots don't get any dice against the lancer nearby since they would not have gotten any dice against it had they been able to conform.

[marioslaz]

Because your lancers have a front of 2 bases, max 4 files can fight against them. To get more your opponent need a BG which qualify as a flank charger, but since you are the charger this it looks impossible

[hammy]

So my hypothesis is that the lancer on the left fights the file in contact and its right-hand neighboring file as an overlap. The lancer on the right fights the base in contact and there is no overlap because the base that would have overlapped if the chariots could conform has been turned to face the other way.

In each case the top bases of the warband and chariots don't get any dice against the lancer nearby since they would not have gotten any dice against it had they been able to conform.

That is what I think too and it is also what seems reaosonable.

[corbon]

So my hypothesis is that the lancer on the left fights the file in contact and its right-hand neighboring file as an overlap. The lancer on the right fights the base in contact and there is no overlap because the base that would have overlapped if the chariots could conform has been turned to face the other way.

In each case the top bases of the warband and chariots don't get any dice against the lancer nearby since they would not have gotten any dice against it had they been able to conform.

That is what I think too and it is also what seems reaosonable.

I don't know about 'reasonable'.
The extra light blue not fighting is reasonable. The extra dark blue would be fighting if you were able to conform (either frontally or as an overlap) and are only being artificially prevented from participating due to the inability to conform. And its not like there are 'extra' blue guys already hogging the space in the fight (which is why the light blue guys missing is reasonable).
I think it is very artificial (and not reasonable) that the dark blue guys are prevented from counting as an overlap. That other dark blue guys are busy fighting in another direction doesn't seem very relevant. The crux is, if you were able to conform the top dark blue guys would be fighting - but you can't, they are excluded, and you can't even claim 'lack of room since there are already too many dark blues in the fight' as a reason for excluding them.
I'm certainly not up with the rules to be arguing against vastly more experienced players (I play, or don't, in a pool of one), but even if the top dark blue file does fight there is still only one file overlap at each end of the front edge - one on the left side of the front edge (light blue) and one on the right side of the front edge (dark blue currently being argued for disallowal). The guys facing the other way could have been an overlap but are not, so why are they relevant? Does it say anywhere else that the overlaps must be to the outside? Or is it just restricted to one overlap at each end of any side as quoted?

To summarise, the top dark blue file would fight if conforming was not prevented. If it does fight, it also does not break a rule that states only one file may fight as an overlap at each end of an edge. So what prevents it from counting?
You guys must be getting your real objection from another rule you haven't quoted?
Or be so used to discounting 'internal' overlaps because there are usually external overlaps canceling them that you automatically reject them on principle?

[corbon]

Because your lancers have a front of 2 bases, max 4 files can fight against them. To get more your opponent need a BG which qualify as a flank charger, but since you are the charger this it looks impossible

Yes, but he is arguing only 3 files, not 4.

[philqw78]

IMO, which has nothing to do with the rules, the chariots should get 4 dice v's the lancers. As it is only due to not being able to conform that they do not. Each base of lancers is certainly allowed to be overlapped but due to geometry isn't. And this is a combat that will never be able to conform, so although massively outnumbered the lancers gain advantage.

[marioslaz]

Because your lancers have a front of 2 bases, max 4 files can fight against them. To get more your opponent need a BG which qualify as a flank charger, but since you are the charger this it looks impossible

Yes, but he is arguing only 3 files, not 4.

Yes, but because one of the eligible chariots is fighting against another BG. If I understood correctly, right hand chariot is turned back toward pink BG, centre chariot is in front contact with red lancers (Bolsheviks, I suppose ) and left hand chariot is facing lancers but it cannot fight, because to count in melee it should conform against the other lancers' front base, but this base is fighting against warband.

[hammy]

Because your lancers have a front of 2 bases, max 4 files can fight against them. To get more your opponent need a BG which qualify as a flank charger, but since you are the charger this it looks impossible

Yes, but he is arguing only 3 files, not 4.

Yes, but because one of the eligible chariots is fighting against another BG. If I understood correctly, right hand chariot is turned back toward pink BG, centre chariot is in front contact with red lancers (Bolsheviks, I suppose ) and left hand chariot is facing lancers but it cannot fight, because to count in melee it should conform against the other lancers' front base, but this base is fighting against warband.

Yes, that was why I think that only one chariot can fight the lancers.

Without the pink BG there would be no doubt that the chariots would get 4 dice againts the lancers.

The question I suppose is if troops fight as if they were conformed would the chariot BG fight as if it had slid over a base and a half sideways? In actuality there were 4 chariots, the lancers hit the one next to the end of the line and the light horse hit the base in 'overlap' in the rear.

If the chariots conformed with no warband present then the lancers would be in contact with the two middle chariots and the chariots would fight with 6 dice (not 8 because of the rear charge).

If the Warband conformed to the lancers they would also fight with 6 dice as they would not have an overlap on the right flank of the lancers.

If the lancers conform to the chariots then it would be 6 chariot dice vs 4 lancers, if the lancers conform to the warband it would again be 6 dice vs 4.

In the end the combat was 6 dice for the warband/chariots abd 4 for the lancers plus 2 dice for the chariots and 2 for the light horse. Or at least that is what I think it should be.

[lawrenceg]

IMO, which has nothing to do with the rules, the chariots should get 4 dice v's the lancers. As it is only due to not being able to conform that they do not. Each base of lancers is certainly allowed to be overlapped but due to geometry isn't. And this is a combat that will never be able to conform, so although massively outnumbered the lancers gain advantage.

IF the lancers conformed to the chariots, the chariots would get 4 dice from 2 bases in frontal contact, no overlap as that base is facing away.

If the lancers conformed to the warband, the warband would get 4 dice from bases in frontal combat and two from overlap. (then reduced for disruption).

In other words, Phil's train of though does not help us determine if it should be 4 dice fom chariots and none from warband, 6 from warband and none from chariots, all dice from both BGs, or some intermediate combination.

If the chariots and warband were all in a single line then the chariots would get one base plus no overlap (assuming the overlapping base is facing away) and the warband would get 1 base frontage in frontal combat plus one in overlap. No-one would think this odd, despite the lancers being massively outnumbered. In the situation depicted, one intuitively feels that the chariots and warband should get a whole lot of dice because the lancers are nearly surrounded in the actual geometry.

The rules for melees that can't line up say:

"If two bases would conform to the same enemy base then the one which has the shortest distance to conform fights against it."

Unfortunately the rules don't say what happens when one base would conform to two enemy bases, which is the situation here (because only the active player conforms). However, the only reasonable assumption is to follow the same principle, hence:

"If one base would conform to two enemy bases then it fights against the one to which it has the shortest distance to conform."

When you combine this with the "no internal overlaps" rule you get the same result as I described for the lined-up fight above, which is also the conclusion the original poster came to.

[SirGarnet]

[Unfortunately the rules don't say what happens when one base would conform to two enemy bases, which is the situation here (because only the active player conforms).

Which base is it that would conform to two enemy bases?

[lawrenceg]

[Unfortunately the rules don't say what happens when one base would conform to two enemy bases, which is the situation here (because only the active player conforms).

Which base is it that would conform to two enemy bases?

Both front rank bases. In the absence of the chariots they would conform to the warband. In the absence of the warband they would conform to the chariots.

[hammy]

IMO if there was no light horse BG then on the warband/chariot players next turn the warband and chariots would line up and end with one base each fighting the lancers. Even with the LH BG there is nothing to prevent the warband from conforming to the lancers in theie next turn so I think that if they conformed the warband would have one file in contact and one in overlap. On that basis there is no way that the chariots can fight with 2 bases in contact as one of the contact points would be taken by the warband.

The real question is if you number the chariots as 1-3 from left to right (and bear in mind that in actuality there was another chariot base 0 to the left of base 1) then would the chariots if they are fighting as if conformed actually count as having an overlap facing the right direction as if they were conformed the end base that was facing the wrong way would actually be two and a bit base widths to the right.

As if this latter interp is considered reasonable I can present a huge pile of gorgonzola that can result I think that it must be the case that it is bases that fight as if they were conformed, not BGs.

[philqw78]

But in the next turn the Chariots would be better usuing their extra base to overlap the LH. Which, again, doesn't help.

[hammy]

But in the next turn the Chariots would be better usuing their extra base to overlap the LH. Which, again, doesn't help.

True, things were not that good for the chariots. The fact they were at -- in melee didn't help a lot either.

[philqw78]

But in the next turn the Chariots would be better usuing their extra base to overlap the LH. Which, again, doesn't help.

True, things were not that good for the chariots. The fact they were at -- in melee didn't help a lot either.

They were obviously Light chariots then so should have evaded which would have avoided all of this.

[hammy]

But in the next turn the Chariots would be better usuing their extra base to overlap the LH. Which, again, doesn't help.

True, things were not that good for the chariots. The fact they were at -- in melee didn't help a lot either.

They were obviously Light chariots then so should have evaded which would have avoided all of this.

They were, but as they were being charged in the front and rear and their evade path would have taken them into an uneven field awell as probably ending up bursting through the warband who were being charged in the flank anyway it was not considered to be a good option. All in all not good