Conforming issue

[grahambriggs]

The exact wording, if it helps:

"... must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slides bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
- Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge
contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position..."

So I can see Graham's point that if the red cataphacts conform to the blue
cataphracts, you are not conforming to the enemy bases in contact; it's not
conforming to an overlap as they aren't in overlap with the pike.

If the conforming was done catafracts to catafracts wouldn't the red catafracts be conforming into an overlap position on the pikes and so be legal?

Yes that would seem to work. I had missed the part that says conforming can be to an overlap position. I'll reread tonight to make sure.

[peterrjohnston]

If the conforming was done catafracts to catafracts wouldn't the red catafracts be conforming into an overlap position on the pikes and so be legal?

I stopped at the "(see below)" after overlap position, which seems to refer to bases in contact with
a flank, not counting as a flank or rear charge. As the red cataphracts aren't, and would break
contact with the pike, I'm not sure it applies.

It would be eminently sensible though, except for the bit about maintaining contact.

Anyone want to actually read the rules?

[expendablecinc]

it is legal to confirm to an overlap position to a base you are in contact with. You are still in contact with the pike. This has come up before when I asked about charging with one bg and scythed chariots to contact the very far corner only of the enemy BG. The chariots slide the minimum (ie out of frontal contact and into overlap instead) and then do not die if the dont disrupt the enemy at bound end.


anthony


http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 44&start=0

Here is a photo to explain it easier than ascii



The red cats have charged up the page at the enemy cats - the pike have intercepted - the question is:

How do the red cats conform?

Ian

Perhaps more a question of do they conform as they will break contact with one of the bases they are in contact with at impact?

[rogerg]

I agree Nik. Conforming the contact to the overlap is still conforming. Clearly, the shortest move is to line up Cataphract to Cataphract. The fact that they impacted with the pikes is not relevant as far as conforming goes.

From the previous comments by the authors I think the tendency has been to read into the wording things that are not intended. The simplest reading is that bases conform 'base on base' where possible and do so by the shortest movement of the base that brings this about.

[gozerius]

It says you must (unless physically imposible or otherwise directed) pivot, etc. bases the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact. Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position. It doesn't specify that the enemy base that you line up on was the one that you contacted in the Impact phase. The diagrams on pages 72 and 87, and also 91/93 show that often the minimum necessary move will be to the base adjacent to the one initially contacted, if that is the shortest route to fully line up. As is the case in this situation. Had the Cats hit the enemy a bit more to the left, so that they covered more than %50 of the base initially contacted, then the minimum required move would be to the left.

[SirGarnet]

It would be good to know if your analysis is how the rules are played the by writers.

If the cataphracts and pikes were not side by side but separated by a small distance, then I assume you agree the conform would not be made since it would not be possible to do so and remain in overlap position with the pikes.

Measuring the pivots and measuring the slides and doing so in the right sequence important if the conforming distances appear not too different. How do you measure those for, as examples, each of the two cataphracts? The pivot and then the slide from the farthest moving corner for the right one, or just a straight line move for the farthest corner to its final locationf? For the left one, a pivot, then a slide to get clear of the pikes, then straight forward?

[expendablecinc]

It would be good to know if your analysis is how the rules are played the by writers.

If the cataphracts and pikes were not side by side but separated by a small distance, then I assume you agree the conform would not be made since it would not be possible to do so and remain in overlap position with the pikes.

Yep I agree. They would brek contact with the pike - which they cant do.

Measuring the pivots and measuring the slides and doing so in the right sequence important if the conforming distances appear not too different. How do you measure those for, as examples, each of the two cataphracts? The pivot and then the slide from the farthest moving corner for the right one, or just a straight line move for the farthest corner to its final locationf? For the left one, a pivot, then a slide to get clear of the pikes, then straight forward?

I suggest a straight line based on whichever base moves the furthest in both scenarios. Basically the same as in the diagram for a wheel.

[deadtorius]

Could the charging cats not have shifted slightly to miss the pikes in the first place thus avoiding this whole mess? Thought you can shift 1/2 base width to avoid enemy when charging, enemy that is not your initial target that is.

Of course that is too late at this point so guess it really doesn't make much difference.

[gozerius]

Well, you can never shift to avoid enemy in your charge path. You can include a wheel as part of your charge declaration , but can't change your path once it is declared. I agree that the Cats could not conform at all if the enemy BGs were seperated. But then we still have the question of who fights whom in the melee. When I figure out conforms I determine the minimum necessary adjustment for each base in contact that would result in a valid conformed position, then, all bases which can physically reach their destination move. Those that can't do not move (but will fight those bases in melee, subject to the restrictions on page 86-87)). All conforming is effectively simultaneous, so that you can never claim that a base that must conform can block another conforming base, unless both bases are trying to conform into the same space. All shifting, pivoting etc. prior to reaching the final conformed location is merely procedural, like rearranging bases when turning. you don't have to physically be able to pivot, then shift, slide etc. you just need a clear path to your target. If you don't have a clear path, you wait until you do. Or until he conforms to you in his own conform phase.
I think that I detect "beta test bias" in some of the comments regarding conforming. I suspect that the playtesters had the written rules, but without all the visual aids. It is easy to see the argument of those who insist that you always only conform to the enemy bases contacted when only reading the text. However it is hard to understand how people can still cling to that notion when the examples of play clearly show otherwise.

[grahambriggs]

Here is a photo to explain it easier than ascii



The red cats have charged up the page at the enemy cats - the pike have intercepted - the question is:

How do the red cats conform?

Ian

Have just reread the rules closely and I don't think the red cats can conform to the blue cats as a 2x2 block. The problem is that the left hand red cat base (fighting the pike) can't conform to a position where they are in front edge contact with the nearest blue cat base. This is not a valid overlap position on the pike base that they start in contact with. See P75 for this overlap position "Full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends". The pike would not be in front edge contact with friends.

I think the only conform that can work is that the two red cats are moved to front edge contact to the bases they are fighting. Then, one of the second rank red cats has to be moved forward to front edge contact with the blue cat in the middle. I'm guessing the other second rank red cat lines up with the closest shift/pivot behind a friend.

Regards

Graham

[gozerius]

By sliding the Cat BG to the right and stepping the lefthand base forward into contact with the enemy Cats, the Cats would be in full front edge contact with an enemy base, and still in side edge contact with the pike. This is the shortest adjustment necessary. The Pike would be in "Full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends", so qualifying to fight as an overlap.

Look at the example of play on page 72. The rightmost cav base pivots and then slides off the base it originally contacted. It ends in full front edge contact with the adjacent file. It is still in corner to corner contact with the original base, but doesn't count as overlapping. But it has conformed to the enemy by the minimum adjustment necessary.
All the examples of play illustrate the requirement for any adjustment to be that which is physically shortest, even when the minimum adjustment necessary is not physically possible. Even in those situations when conforming is not possible, the unconformed BGs fight with the same number of bases as if the BGs had completed their conform adjustments. So if a base is in partial contact with an enemy base, it must still identify the base or overlap which it would fully conform to were it possible to do so by the minimum necessary adjustment.

[lawrenceg]

The exact wording, if it helps:

"... must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slides bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
- Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge
contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position..."

So I can see Graham's point that if the red cataphacts conform to the blue
cataphracts, you are not conforming to the enemy bases in contact; it's not
conforming to an overlap as they aren't in overlap with the pike.

If the conforming was done catafracts to catafracts wouldn't the red catafracts be conforming into an overlap position on the pikes and so be legal?

According to the definition of "overlap position" on pae 75, the cataphracts would NOT overlap the pikes. The pikes would overlap the cataphracts. Therefore the red catphracts can't conform but the pikes and blues could conform in their turn.

This would be true even if the pikes and blue cats front edges were colinear, or if it were a single BG 4 wide. I don't thin this is the intention of the rule, but it is the wording.

I think the intention is that you can conform to a position where the base you were in contact with overlaps you.

I have been saying since beta testing that the whole idea of conforming could be dispensed with as it is not necessary and leads to argument over all but the simplest cases, but the authors have always been adamant that it stays in.

[SirGarnet]

I have been saying since beta testing that the whole idea of conforming could be dispensed with as it is not necessary and leads to argument over all but the simplest cases, but the authors have always been adamant that it stays in.

Perhaps the differences between the conformists and non-conformists could be resolved in the customary way - fair combat between their champions on the field of glory?

[marioslaz]

If red Cat were lined with a file against pikes and the other file against blue Cat, with a direct charge they would contact both pikes and blue Cat, because they must step forward. So IMO after conforming they must end in a such position because with their charge they contacted both pikes and blue Cat, even if with an angle. In other words, red Cat must fight melee with an overlap of pike on left flank and an overlap of Cat on right flank, because they are 2 files against 4 files and mathematics is not an opinion. Other solutions are only a cheesy use of rules. If red Cat's owner wanted to fight with only an overlap, he should direct the charge only against pikes or blue Cat, not both.

[grahambriggs]

By sliding the Cat BG to the right and stepping the lefthand base forward into contact with the enemy Cats, the Cats would be in full front edge contact with an enemy base, and still in side edge contact with the pike. This is the shortest adjustment necessary. The Pike would be in "Full or partial side edge to side edge contact with an enemy base that is in front edge contact with friends", so qualifying to fight as an overlap.

Yes, if you could do this the pike would fight as an overlap. Unfortunately, the red cats would still not be in an overalp position agiainst the pike. The only legal conform I can see is that you end up with two bases against the blue cats, one against the pike, and one in the back rank.

I think that also passes the reasonableness test - a few troopers hit the pike but most hit the cats and that's how the conform works out.

[grahambriggs]

If red Cat were lined with a file against pikes and the other file against blue Cat, with a direct charge they would contact both pikes and blue Cat, because they must step forward. So IMO after conforming they must end in a such position because with their charge they contacted both pikes and blue Cat, even if with an angle. In other words, red Cat must fight melee with an overlap of pike on left flank and an overlap of Cat on right flank, because they are 2 files against 4 files and mathematics is not an opinion. Other solutions are only a cheesy use of rules. If red Cat's owner wanted to fight with only an overlap, he should direct the charge only against pikes or blue Cat, not both.

The reason I raised this is that the rules seem unclear and it would be good to get author comment. It is not a question of chese. If the authors meant one thing to happen and the rules say something different it needs to be pointed to.

[gozerius]

I don't think that there is a common opinion amongst the rules authors on this. They are supposed to be working out their differences right now. I am basing all my arguments on a synthesis of the text and the examples of play. If it should be decided that the examples of play are NOT accurate depictions of the authors' intent with regards to conforming, I will have no choice but to declare the authors bewitched and have them burned to preserve the integrity of the rules.

[marioslaz]

I will have no choice but to declare the authors bewitched and have them burned to preserve the integrity of the rules.

Hi Tomàs de Torquemada. I was pretty sure you died in 1498, but I was wrong evidently.

[grahambriggs]

I don't think that there is a common opinion amongst the rules authors on this. They are supposed to be working out their differences right now. I am basing all my arguments on a synthesis of the text and the examples of play. If it should be decided that the examples of play are NOT accurate depictions of the authors' intent with regards to conforming, I will have no choice but to declare the authors bewitched and have them burned to preserve the integrity of the rules.

I've tried burning Terry before. Not as much fun as you'd think.

[dave_r]

I've tried burning Terry before. Not as much fun as you'd think.

But surely we would all have to try setting Terry alight before we could determine if it was fun or not?