Moveing troops to fight a overlapping units

[CLAVDIVS]

Hi All,
We had a combat thing today see photos,

Photo 1, Spearmen fighting Cavalry to its front after the Cavalry unit charges in.
A second Cavalry unit in the Cavalry movement turn moves onto the flank of the Spearmen and fights as an over lap to the Spearmen unit in the melee turn.

Photo 2 In the Spearmen turn can the Spearmen move troops into combat with the second Cavalry unit which is fighting as an overlap to the Spearmen or not.

[deadtorius]

The spearmen appear to be three deep in formation is that correct? If they are indeed 3 deep, that big base with the flag is a general I assume(?), then the rear rank could conform to an existing overlap by expanding out by one base taken from the third rank.
I am not sure why the general is in the middle of the unit when he should have been in the front rank as fighting or in the rear leading which makes it a bit of an odd situation.

If you want to move troops into an overlap they must not be getting any dice for combat in the melee to move into or match an overlap. If they get combat dice they remain where they are fighting.

Hope that helps you out.

[petedalby]

The spears may only expand in an enemy turn to match an existing overlap.

So my answer would be no. Check out the detailed sequence of play.

Depending upon how many bases are in the Spear BG, they could expand in your turn provided they are not already in overlap or addig POA.

[CLAVDIVS]

The Spearmen unit was 8 bases in total and in 2 files with a general with the unit when hit by the first Cavalry unit after the impact phase the Spearmen unit only had 7 basesand was Disrupted as well, in the Cavalry movement phase the second unit of Cavalry then moved into a flanking support to the first Cavalry unit and added dice to the melee phase.

Now it is the Spearmen's Turn,
In the Spearmen’s turn in the movement phase the unit as 3 bases not fighting at this time, I wish to move 2/3 bases into contact with the second Cavalry unit.
I was tolled that I cannot put bases into melee with the second Cavalry unit because it was only a flank contact? Was this right or incorrect please.

[philqw78]

The cavalry are an overlap not a flank contact. So you can expand to contact and fight them. Though why you would want to I do not know.

If they were a flank contact you would be fighting in 2 directions. And you could still move bases to fight them in your own turn, even if fighting in 2 directions.

[deadtorius]

When I originally posted my reply pic 2 was not showing, you did it correctly.

Though why you would want to I do not know.

You would want to match the overlap so your opponent does not get extra dice in the combat. Now that all bases are in frontal contact only the spear unit player will get exxtra dice for having an overlap on the left side of the picture. Extra dice can some times mean the difference between winning and losing a melee.

[philqw78]

Though why you would want to I do not know.

You would want to match the overlap so your opponent does not get extra dice in the combat. Now that all bases are in frontal contact only the spear unit player will get exxtra dice for having an overlap on the left side of the picture. Extra dice can some times mean the difference between winning and losing a melee.

But in this case an expansion would eventually (when the cav expand in their own turn) add 1 dice for the spears and 2 dice for the cav. Giving 2 BG of Cav at 4 dice each against 1 BG of spears; 3 Dice against 1 cav BG and 1 dice against the other. Making it more likely for the spears to lose and lose badly. This could also mean losing 2 bases instead of the maximum one it could lose if it did not expand. And more chance of hits against it so even if it won there is more chance of a roll to kill the general.

[hammy]

The spears may only expand in an enemy turn to match an existing overlap.

So my answer would be no. Check out the detailed sequence of play.

Depending upon how many bases are in the Spear BG, they could expand in your turn provided they are not already in overlap or addig POA.

???

Err, you can match an existing overlap in the enemy bound or in your bound. You can only create a new overlap in your bound.

[philqw78]

The spears may only expand in an enemy turn to match an existing overlap.

So my answer would be no. Check out the detailed sequence of play.

Depending upon how many bases are in the Spear BG, they could expand in your turn provided they are not already in overlap or addig POA.

???

Err, you can match an existing overlap in the enemy bound or in your bound. You can only create a new overlap in your bound.

Thats what Pete said. He didn't add that they could match or create in their own bound.

[johno]

Pete appears to be saying that they can't match the overlap in their turn, because they are only allowed to match overlaps in the enemy turn.

This may not be what he meant, but it is what his text seems to say...

johno

[marioslaz]

Pete appears to be saying that they can't match the overlap in their turn, because they are only allowed to match overlaps in the enemy turn.

This may not be what he meant, but it is what his text seems to say...

johno

IMO rules say active player can expand one file whatever the situation (overlap already exists or not) non active player can expand only if overlap already exists or to match an overlap created in that turn by active player.

[philqw78]

IMO rules say active player can expand one file whatever the situation (overlap already exists or not) non active player can expand only if overlap already exists or to match an overlap created in that turn by active player.

I'm sure that is what they say

[lawrenceg]

The spears may only expand in an enemy turn to match an existing overlap.

So my answer would be no. Check out the detailed sequence of play.

Depending upon how many bases are in the Spear BG, they could expand in your turn provided they are not already in overlap or addig POA.

When Pete wrote "The spears may only expand in an enemy turn to match an existing overlap." he meant "The spears may expand in an enemy turn only to match an existing overlap."

I think he misunderstood the original question as he gave the answer "No" in his second line, but his third line in effect correctly answers the question that was actually asked with a "Yes".

[petedalby]

Thank you to everyone who has interpreted my clearly inadequate and ambiguous post for which I am very sorry.

I'll try again.

CLAVDIVS has now clarified that his 8 base spear BG was in 2 files when it was hit in the impact phase. He has also clarified that he lost the impact round, went disrupted and lost a base - severe bad luck when he was a POA up and had a general there too!

Now check out the detail sequence of play on P168.

Reform battle groups....
Feed additional bases into existing melees.
Make normal movement...

As it is the cavalry players turn, the spears may not feed additional bases into the melee. See p72.

The cavalry player now moves a new BG into overlap. The spears may not match this overlap until the following turn.

Hope that clarifies my original post and isn't too contentious?

Cheers

[hammy]

Hope that clarifies my original post and isn't too contentious?

It does.

FWIW if the spears had been able to expand then cavalry would not have been able to move into contact as moving into frontal contact requires a charge.

[CLAVDIVS]

thanks to you all for the clarification on this it was a big help

[marioslaz]

I clarify my post too. When I wrote:

IMO rules say active player can expand one file whatever the situation (overlap already exists or not) non active player can expand only if overlap already exists or to match an overlap created in that turn by active player.

I was replying to johno who wrote:

Pete appears to be saying that they can't match the overlap in their turn, because they are only allowed to match overlaps in the enemy turn.

because it seems to me he was misunderstanding rules. Even if the overall situation didn't convince me (you can match an overlap from feeding but not from movement) this is what actual rules say.

[johno]

Mario: I agree with your succinct summary

I commented on Pete's text since it appeared to be saying that the only opportunity for matching overlaps was in the enemy turn. I didn't actually dig out the rule book to check the wording until several days later, at which point Pete's text made perfect sense, and matched my understanding of the rules, but was an incomplete description of the situation.

Unfortunately, I also agree with Pete's other comments: when you apply the move sequence, if a second cavalry unit joins in as an overlap, the spears have already had their opportunity to match overlaps, and can't respond. If the overlap was generated by the unit they are already fighting shifting unengaged bases, then they could match it.

To answer the OP's question: the spears can't match the overlap in the cavalry turn, but are free to match it in their own turn.

johno