The Trouble With Tercios

[nikgaukroger]

… and other pike and shot formations


As we get down to the meat of the Wars of Religion list book I realise we know need to make sure we’ve got the BG size for various formations nailed down so that we have a logical and consistent approach. Charles obviously had some ideas when he started on the rules and drafted out the “quick and dirty” beta lists, however, we must now IMO review these otherwise it will be too late, especially if anything needs to go into the rules.

I’ve started by looking at Tercios – and have been heavily influenced by this website in what I’ve written below http://usuarios.lycos.es/ao1617/home.html


Originally the tercios were c. 3000 men strong and were as much an administrative organisation as a tactical one. At times they exceeded this establishment figure and at other times fell below it.

For example when they first marched to Flanders (1571) we have Alba’s tercios with strengths of 2204, 3194, 1641 and 1757 men and the tercios which invaded France in 1596 were roughly 1600, 1400, 800 and 600 men.

Additionally it was possible for only part of a Tercio to be deployed.

Originally the Tercio was roughly 1:1 pike to shot, however, the amount of shot increased over time and figures for 1596 and 1601 show the Flanders army had roughly 2:1 shot to pike. The shot at the time was itself roughly 1:1 arquebus to muskets with the number of the latter increasing over time.

In 1632 the tercios were reformed. Although still theoretically 3000 men strong the reality was much different with the tercios at Nordlingen around half this size. By the second half of the C17th units were, in reality, about the same size as other European “battalion” units i.e. c. 600 men strong.


Nest part is looking at the battlefield formations.

The original formation is the classic massive pike block surrounded by shot with the majority massed at the 4 corners. Pikes are drawn up in the region of 25-30 ranks deep.

There are 2 alternative formations which appear to be for formations that are roughly half the size of a full Tercio. There is El Prolongado de Gran Frente where the pikemen are more like 16 men deep but maintain the normal frontage, and also El Gente which has the pikes in the normal depth but half the frontage. Both of these have shot in the usual proportions and still mainly massed at the corners of the pikes.

The “classic” style and the 2 variations are clearly all round formations.

By the C17th the El Prolongado formation now has the pikes roughly 10 deep with 2 shot sleeves and may well have essentially been just a large version of what was to become the normal European pike and shot formations. By comparison the Dutch also used 10 deep formations up smaller in overall size.

This is no longer an all round formation IMO.

By Rocroi in 1643 the tercios are described as “squadrons”, again like other European formations were along with “battalion”, and in Portugal formation depth of 6 ranks is recorded, once again like the usual European pattern. Writing around this time Montecuccoli suggests that the Spanish form up 7 deep.

Spanish formations are no longer different from everyone else.


For comparison other European pike and shot formations were:

Dutch – 10 ranks deep but the individual units (hopen) were 5/600 men strong; regiments were theoretically larger but were divided into hopen in the field; some hopen were created from sub-strength units. Hopen were effectively brigaded together in pairs or threes; brigades could be deployed in depth with hopen in each line the infantry were deployed in.

Swedish – 6 ranks deep; brigades were around 1200-1500 men, although some could be nearer 2000 men on occasion; brigades are formed by combining regiments as necessary.

Imperials – Wallenstein formed his troops up 7 deep in the 1630s; pike and shot bodies were around 1000 men strong formed by combining units if necessary.

ECW – Royalists copied contemporary European practice and formed up 6 deep from the start; Parliamentarians probably began 8-10 deep in imitation of the Dutch but the almost certainly dropped to 6 deep which was certainly used by the New Model; Scots presumably followed Swedish practice and were 6 deep as so many officers had served with the Swedes. Bodies of around 500 men were formed from regiments and brigaded together for deployment with brigades being in the region of 1000 – 1500 men.



So taking this all into account do we have the formations right in the lists (and rules) at present?

Thoughts and suggestions?

[rbodleyscott]

The Early TYW German Catholic lists states that Tilly's Veterans can be fielded as Early Tercios.

However, as far as I can see they are in fact Later Tercios - with 2 files of pikes and 2 of musketeers.

[nikgaukroger]

This is because I failed to edit the list blurb properly

Karsten may wish to contribute to this topic to explain how he sees Tilly's formations fitting into the scheme.

[nikgaukroger]

BTW please also look at the TYW Germans topic as it has some info and links to info that probably apply to this topic.

[robertthebruce]

The Tercio formation was not a rigid structure, in fact In think that their flexibility was the secret of their success.

Tercio means 1/3 part, probably because in 1497 the spanish infantry formation was structured with a 1/3 of Pikes, 1/3 of bucklermen and 1/3 of crossbowmen and firearms. This Early Tercios were formed by 3.000 mens.



The ussually acepted structure of the Tercios is:

Early Tercios or Tercios of Italy

3.000 mens. (10 Companies of 300 mens)

8 companies of Pikemen (2400 mens)
2 Companies of Arquebusiers ( 600 mens)

Tercios of Flandes

12 companies of 250 mens. 3.000 mens

10 companies of Pikemen (2500 mens)
2 Companies of arquebusiers (500 mens)


Here we have Tercios of 12 companies and other ones with 10 companies, in the tercios with 10 companies the proportion of firearms and pikemen was 1:1, It could be called Coroneilia or small tercio.

In 1632, the Tercios in foreing territories were reformed to 15 companies, 13-2.

The Pikemen were deployed together in the center of the formation, the firearms were deployed in square around the pikemens and some of them were deployed as "mangas" skirmishers.
It could be seen in a picture of San Lorenzo of Escorial (late 16c):






Lately, "El arte de Escuadronar" was added, what is this?, only groups of Tercios with lots of losts who cannot complete the most of companies, they form a Big Tercios called squadrons (It sounds you Nick )


Now we must to differentiate between the formation of tercio and the tercio.


Tercio Formation:
As I said, 10 companies of Pikemen and 2 or Firearms or 8-2

Tercio:


Tercio formation + support troops, the most of them were firearms and cavalry, this can put us in a wrong way, not all the firearms were deployed in the tercio formation, some of the were support troops and I think they must be relfected as independent units.



And Finally, Nick, the deserters and the losses ussualy changed the proportion of Pikes-Firearms and the number of soldiers of each Tercio. The true is that we have a Teorical tercio at the begining and a real Tercio in the end.


Cheers


David

[rbodleyscott]

There is no way that this picture shows a ratio of 10:2 pikemen:shot.

I count about 1,500 shot in the tercio. It looks more like a 1:1 ratio to me.

[nikgaukroger]

Well looking at the info on the tercio website I kinked to it certainly looks as though some of the earlier tercios had less shot than we have conventionally understood.

The info per the website is:

The combat companies 1534 - 1632
The Tercio has two different types of company: a company of pikemen and a company of harquebusiers. Between 1534 and 1536, 3 Tercios were created with 8 companies of pikemen and 2 companies of harquebusiers of 300 men each. In 1567, 4 Tercios were sent to the Flandres and in 1568 they had, in theory, 10 companies of pikemen and 2 companies of harquebusiers of 250 men each. The other Tercios, in Italy, had still 10 companies of 300 men.
All the companies have the same staff:

1 captain and his page,
1 alférez (lieutenant),
1 sergeant,
1 abanderado (ensign),
3 musicians,
1 clerk,
1 chaplain and 1 barber, in total 11 officers

Each Spanish company was divided in "escuadra " or group of a maximum of 25 men commanded by a "cabo". A 250 men company had 10 cabos and a 300 men company had 12 cabos. The Spanish had also an unofficial structure of half dozen of men called las camaradas, it was not a combat structure but a group of men from the same company sharing the food, the bed, the training, the friend ship. The camaradas were important to maintain the moral and the famous esprit de corps of the Spanish soldiers.

A: Composition of a Tercio of 12 companies of 250 men:
2 x [11 officers, 224 harquebusiers and 15 musketeers]
10 x [11 officers, 111 corselets, 108 single pikemen, and 20 musketeers]

B: Composition of a Tercio of 10 companies of 300 men:
2 x [11 officers, 35 single pikemen, 239 harquebusiers and 15 musketeers]
8 x [11 officers, 135 corselets, 44 single pikemen, 90 harquebusiers and 20 musketeers]

From this we have a 12 company tercio with roughly 1/3 of the men shot and a 10 company tercio with roughly equal number of pike and shot - the “classic” tercio if you like.

The Flanders tercios appear to have had the fewer shot according to the website:

Composition of the 7509 men from the 50 companies of the 4 Tercios of the Army of Flandres in 1571. We have 28% of gunmen and 66% of pikemen (33% of corselets and 33% of single pikemen). The ratio Gun /Pike is 0.55.

However, by the end of the century the amount of shot rises dramatically:

Composition of the 4910 men (530 officers and 4380 privates) divided in 44 companies (4 Tercios) for the invasion of north France in 1596. In this case the ratio gun / pike is 2.56.

This would appear to have implications for the lists we need for the second list book.

However, for the first book I think we are looking at tercios that are 2:1 shot:pike (again info from the tercio web site|) and deployed 10 deep in what looks like a “conventional” formation. Although theoretically 3000 men strong in reality they are more like 1500. How should these be depicted bearing in mind other formations of the time?

Of course I am putting a lot of trust in this web site

[robertthebruce]

There is no way that this picture shows a ratio of 10:2 pikemen:shot.

I count about 1,500 shot in the tercio. It looks more like a 1:1 ratio to me.

I only want to show the formation here, not the proportion pike-shot, I think isn´t easy to know how many soldiers of each there is in the picture.


As Nick said, the proportion between pike and shot changes in some periods and territories, with a variation of 70%-30% to 50%-50%.


The cited web is a good resource, it shows the same that other more completed texts but here you can read it in English, the most of other webs are in Spanish.


Basically in think that we can take this proportions for the Tercios:


Early Tercio. 2-1 Pike-Shot
Later Tercio. 10 Companies 1-1 and 12 companies 2-1


David

[nikgaukroger]

Basically in think that we can take this proportions for the Tercios:


Early Tercio. 2-1 Pike-Shot
Later Tercio. 10 Companies 1-1 and 12 companies 2-1

Not sure that works. The info I posted has the 2:1 and 1:1 pike to shot tercios existing at the same time - with the 1:1 in Italy and the 2:1 in Flanders. Both come uder the Early Tercio in the current FoG:R scheme. I assume that both of these could be formed into the half sized varients El prolongado and El gente.

The Later Tercio appears to me to be the 1:2 pike to shot formation that was in reality around 1500 men strong and formed 10 deep - apart from the size of each body this sounds just like the Dutch formation ...

Of course to keep things confusing Karsten has mentioned Tilly forming his large Catholic League foot regiments up in a "windmill" formation which could mean an old fashioned tercio style with bodies of shot at the corners of the pike block.

Unless it means something like the French infantry illustrated here in 1610 - the 2 "mini-tercios" on the left ...
http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50 ... 1610_4.jpg

[robertthebruce]

Ok, now I understand the problem, we are talking about diferent things


I´m talking of a tercio only as a close formation of mixed pikes and shot, and you are including all the support gunners that were deployed around them but not mixed.

The companies were composed by a mix of Pikemen, Coselets and gunners, the proportion of them is diferent in the Pikemen companies and in the gunners companies.

In the early Tercios the most of gunners were deployed in the front ranks mixed with the pikemens.


San quintin:




You can see, 1/3 of gunners mixed with the pikemen, there is more gunners skirmishing.


In late Tercios, the gunners were deployed mixed with the pikemen and other ones around the tercio in the corners:






ShSh----------------------ShSh
ShSh----------------------ShSh
------Pk-Sh Pk-Sh Pk-Sh
------Pk-Sh Pk-Sh Pk-Sh
------Pk-Sh Pk-Sh Pk-Sh
ShSh----------------------ShSh
ShSh----------------------ShSh



I were not sure if you want to reflect the tercio with all the support troops, now I see, it could be fine, but probably this could give an extrange view in the battlefield to the late Tercios, don´t?




David

[robertthebruce]

Tercios at 1600:








David

[rbodleyscott]

We cannot hope the represent the formations in detail when were are using 3 or 4 figures to represent 150-200 men.

The formation used under the rules is therefore an abstraction to get some approximation of the appropriate flavour.

Tercios under the rules do include all the attached (or semi-detached) shot, not just the ones mixed in with or immediately surrounding the pike block.

[rbodleyscott]

There is no way that this picture shows a ratio of 10:2 pikemen:shot.

I count about 1,500 shot in the tercio. It looks more like a 1:1 ratio to me.

I only want to show the formation here, not the proportion pike-shot, I think isn´t easy to know how many soldiers of each there is in the picture.

Well, in fact, it is perfectly possible to count the number of arquebusiers round the outside of the pike block - they are clearly enough shown to count the number of ranks and files.

You cannot count the number of pikemen, but assuming they have roughly the same frontage per rank and file, the ratio is approximately 1:1.

This assumes that in the depiction there are no arquebusiers mixed in with the pikemen, If there are, then the proportion of pike to arquebus would be more like 1:2.

[robertthebruce]

Well, in fact, it is perfectly possible to count the number of arquebusiers round the outside of the pike block - they are clearly enough shown to count the number of ranks and files.

You cannot count the number of pikemen, but assuming they have roughly the same frontage per rank and file, the ratio is approximately 1:1.

This assumes that in the depiction there are no arquebusiers mixed in with the pikemen, If there are, then the proportion of pike to arquebus would be more like 1:2.

I´m sure that there is a few gunners mixed with the pikemen, in front ranks at least.

In Rocroi, some years later this kind of formation was still working.

Counting the semi-detached shot, in the late tercios the rate must be 1.1, and 1.2 in some units.



In the Early Tercios maybe between 2.1 and 1.1.


David

[Ghaznavid]

This is because I failed to edit the list blurb properly

Karsten may wish to contribute to this topic to explain how he sees Tilly's formations fitting into the scheme.

I'm busy for a few days and ...
Well short and sweet I'm not sure Tilly's formations fit into 'the' scheme at all. The description cries early Tercio. I'm not 100% sure that's corect, but I'm pretty sure it is more correct then shoe-horning it into the later Tercio mold as Nik did.

[nikgaukroger]

Any more thoughts or ideas?

It is likely that I will make some sort of decision on tercios at the weekend along with early C17th non-tercio formations. So a chance to get your retaliation in first

[robertthebruce]

I think that the "Mangas" of firearms could be taken into account, this is a part of the firearms deployed as skirmishers in the front of the Tercio. But I´m not sure how it can run under FOG Because ussualy they took refuge into the Tercio when the enemy push them.

If they are no included as independent unit, some firearms bases into the tercio could be based as skirmishers, if this solution doesn´t work the army notes must talk about them at least.


The Later Tercio was composed by 10, 12 or 15 companies, with a ratio of 8-2, 10-2 and 13-2 companies Pikemen-Firearms. We know that the pikemen companies also include firearms, and finally the ratio of Pikemen-Firearms was 1:1, this must be explained in the army notes. There is a lot of people in Spain who thinks that the Tercio was a Pikemen formation with a few firearms support. I wan´t imagine the critics voices of the purits when FOGR will be released with this ratio of Pikemen-Firearms.


I recommend that the diference betwen the teorical number of pikemen and the real one, will be explained as the reluctance of the spanish soldiers to take the pike and the coselet, because the firearms were best payed and the pikemen life were hardest than the gunner.


I have a letter of "Duque de Alba" who ask the instructors to requiring the gunners to take the pike under the thread of be fired, because the tercios in flandes had problems to complete the pikemen companies.


David

[rbodleyscott]

Another thing we need to consider is whether we really want tercios with half the shot classified as arqebusiers and half as musketeers.

The definitions of arquebus and musket already allow them each to have a proportion of the other weapon.

If we represent them as separate bases, then (unless we legislate otherwise) players will deploy all the muskets in the front horns and all the arqubuses in the rear horns.

Were they in separate bodies (of 200 men) or mixed together?

If the latter, then I suggest the situation would be best represented by making them all arqebus before a certain date, all musket after a certain date, and have a choice of which to field them all (in each BG) in an interrim period.

[nikgaukroger]

I think that the "Mangas" of firearms could be taken into account, this is a part of the firearms deployed as skirmishers in the front of the Tercio. But I´m not sure how it can run under FOG Because ussualy they took refuge into the Tercio when the enemy push them.

If they are no included as independent unit, some firearms bases into the tercio could be based as skirmishers, if this solution doesn´t work the army notes must talk about them at least.

The shot element - the mangas - are included in the formation as are any shot that deployed infrom, and indeed to the sides, of the main pike formation and not in the "horns" at each corner. However, they are all abstracted into the shot blocks as the simplist way of dealing with it within the restrictions of figures and bases.

Note that the rules already say:

"Note: it was usual for tercios to have some shot deployed in front of the central pike block but these are not represented by separate bases. In 6mm or smaller scales the front rank pike bases could include a rank or two of shot in front of the pikemen figurines to represent these. Similarly, tercio formations would usually have musketeers who would initially deploy on each face of the core of pikemen. "

The Later Tercio was composed by 10, 12 or 15 companies, with a ratio of 8-2, 10-2 and 13-2 companies Pikemen-Firearms. We know that the pikemen companies also include firearms, and finally the ratio of Pikemen-Firearms was 1:1, this must be explained in the army notes. There is a lot of people in Spain who thinks that the Tercio was a Pikemen formation with a few firearms support. I wan´t imagine the critics voices of the purits when FOGR will be released with this ratio of Pikemen-Firearms.

Which is interesting as it means the Spanish view their tercios quite differently from the rest of us Tercios are always described as formations that include pike and shot with the development of this combination being "modern" rather than old faashioned massed pike formations.

I recommend that the diference betwen the teorical number of pikemen and the real one, will be explained as the reluctance of the spanish soldiers to take the pike and the coselet, because the firearms were best payed and the pikemen life were hardest than the gunner.


I have a letter of "Duque de Alba" who ask the instructors to requiring the gunners to take the pike under the thread of be fired, because the tercios in flandes had problems to complete the pikemen companies.


David

If you have his comments these would make a useful list note for colour

[nikgaukroger]

Another thing we need to consider is whether we really want tercios with half the shot classified as arqebusiers and half as musketeers.

The definitions of arquebus and musket already allow them each to have a proportion of the other weapon.

If we represent them as separate bases, then (unless we legislate otherwise) players will deploy all the muskets in the front horns and all the arqubuses in the rear horns.

Were they in separate bodies (of 200 men) or mixed together?

If the latter, then I suggest the situation would be best represented by making them all arqebus before a certain date, all musket after a certain date, and have a choice of which to field them all (in each BG) in an interrim period.

If we do this we will probably have to do the same for the Dutch, etc. for consistency.