protected offensive spear

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:49 am

I mainly play hellenistic armies and wanted to ask you guys what you think of this troop type .I like the MI thureophoroi but I find my HI protected spear always out classed on one level or another .I do take them in bg's of 8's as it seems they last longer but they just dont seem to stand up to Thorakitai or roman auxilia impactfoot .They are fine against cav .but seem to get beeten by other infantry .Thoughts? ideas ?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:04 am

If you can take them as MF it might help to stick them in some not so good ground, then your opponent will lose dice for being disordered.
I prefer to use the armoured spears the Thorakitai if they are available, but I have had luck with protected offensive spear poor citizen militia in my Selcuid army.
Don't forget that offensive spear in good order removes sword from your opponent, if they are armoured they still get a + but no ++ for armoured swordsmen. Try standing up hill, that gives you a + for spears and + for uphill. Just don't let your opponent force you to charge him downhill.
In the LRRoman army we have seen the protected spear either stand up well and kill lots or get swept away in the first charge. Kind of like elephants, either they do well or they die a quick and unfortunate death.
Hope some of that advice helps a bit, offensive spear are good but protected makes them a little more vulnerable.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:59 am

I just got very good results from my one BG of 8 MF, undrilled, prot, off sp this weekend at Fall In!. They were a part of my Alexander Macedonian army. In the final I used them to chase down multiple BGs of Mongol LH and shooty cav (with the help of a BG of Cav, to be sure). Very useful. The fact that they were an 8 meant that they rarely had a very difficult CT from shooting.

Marc

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:16 am

babyshark wrote:I just got very good results from my one BG of 8 MF, undrilled, prot, off sp this weekend at Fall In!. They were a part of my Alexander Macedonian army. In the final I used them to chase down multiple BGs of Mongol LH and shooty cav (with the help of a BG of Cav, to be sure). Very useful. The fact that they were an 8 meant that they rarely had a very difficult CT from shooting.

Marc

How would it have worked out if they'd been two 4-paks? More opportunity to manouever and such? More problems being shot at? Did you use them 4 wide? 3 wide? Am curious because the MRRomans can field Pergamene allies with similar foot but they can be 4-8. Was thinking of running two 4-paks plus a BG of LH on one flank.

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:13 am

HF protected spears are a huge risk. They really need to fight 3/3/2 so you have spares to slot in once they lose bases, and to have rear support too.and that leaves you too narrow to be effective.

The problem seems to be that once they either go disordered or lose a base and end up one rank deep they cannot recover against most typical opponents.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:52 am

I look at Protected Spears as a benchmark average troop type - the ones others are better or worse than for particular purposes. Certainly they are widespread. They are not at all scary, but are good enough to stand in the line of battle in suitable terrain and present a solid enough surface that an opponent has to think about using serious troops to get rid of them. They keep the enemy's attention while you do the damage elsewhere.

As spears, they have the notable ability to neutralize lances and swords - very annoying to many heavy-hitting troop types. This can be a good equalizer, particularly for armies that don't like Knights. Let the Knights bite at the Spears while the Legionaries etc. use their talents elsewhere.

Armoured are of course lovably tougher than protected, but also less common and cost too much to be used just to occupy space and face off the enemy - they really need to be doing something active to pull their weight. Armoured give the solid stone wall feel I like with a hoplite striking force.

Protected spears are like a thin brick wall - they can stand up well unless the mortar fails and the bricks come loose (my experience with masses of Scots spears, though my army's best troops proved even more emotionally unable to deal with CMTs and CTs).

Mike

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:21 pm

Blathergut wrote:
babyshark wrote:I just got very good results from my one BG of 8 MF, undrilled, prot, off sp this weekend at Fall In!. They were a part of my Alexander Macedonian army. In the final I used them to chase down multiple BGs of Mongol LH and shooty cav (with the help of a BG of Cav, to be sure). Very useful. The fact that they were an 8 meant that they rarely had a very difficult CT from shooting.

Marc

How would it have worked out if they'd been two 4-paks? More opportunity to manouever and such? More problems being shot at? Did you use them 4 wide? 3 wide? Am curious because the MRRomans can field Pergamene allies with similar foot but they can be 4-8. Was thinking of running two 4-paks plus a BG of LH on one flank.

More opportunity to maneuver, of course, but much more vulnerable to shooting. Under the circumstances I was very happy to have one BG of 8. Perhaps two x4 would have been useful if they could have been drilled. Probably still rather have one 8, though.

Marc

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:29 pm

Thanks for the advice guys I made the mistake of taking them in a 6 stand HI (cant get MI)BG and one good shot from some light horse followed up by a charge of auxillia and these boys routed after 2 turns of combat

and the auxillia took the camp

I wanted to take them for historical reasons (always bad I know) and I like hoppy's .Unless I take 8 I will leave them behined and take more pike seems which seems more useful.