Conforming issue

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:17 am

Slight edit for understanding

>ascii art alert <

Was asked to rule on conforming at the weekend. Two enemy units, both two files wide, AB and CD are facing up:

XXCD
ABCD
ABXX

A friendly BG two files wide - EF - charges both enemies from the front, but at an angle. As it happens, base A is contacted as is base C. Base B isn't contacted.

The impact is fought to little effect and we move on to movement phase and conforming. And hit a problem.

The movement rules say you conform by making the smallest shift. Which would be to make EF line up against AB.

However, the enemy point out theat the rules say that you line up with bases you are in contact with (or similar). And "you are not in contact with base B so can't line up with them".

As I was umpire, I ruled that EF could not conform . However, later, it occurred to me that this might open the door to more general issues with conforming after angled charges even on single battle groups.

Any views on what is the correct ruling?

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:31 pm

Could you rewrite that Graham, I haven't a clue what you're trying to say, sorry!

Do you mean AB and CD for example?

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:59 pm

Ah yes, drafting error - have edited.

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:00 pm

I assume EF has come in from the left, although from the right is just about possible with step forward on deep bases.

I would have said that EF stay where they are as they can't conform to bases in contact. Next turn, if they can, AB and CD conform (A doesn't need to stay in contact with E, for example). In the non-conformed situation, B can't fight, of course.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:49 pm

If the front ranks of AB and CD were less than 2 MU and less than the depth of BG EF apart then surely EF conforms with a step forward to get contact with all the front bases of the enemy BG.

Granted additional bases would end in contact but the conform rules don't prevent that.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:42 pm

hammy wrote:If the front ranks of AB and CD were less than 2 MU and less than the depth of BG EF apart then surely EF conforms with a step forward to get contact with all the front bases of the enemy BG.

Granted additional bases would end in contact but the conform rules don't prevent that.

AB and CD were in side edge contact with each other (the right hand side of file B being in edge contact with the left hand edge of file C). CD was perhaps half an MU further forward than AB.

EF was a battlegroup of 4 cavalry bases in two ranks.

The problem is that the rule states that you conform to enemy bases which are in contact. Prior to conforming, Base A is in contact (with E). Base C is in contact (with F). Base B is not in contact. So EF "wants" to conform file E to file A and file F to file C. But that would make a gap in the battle group.

The shortest shift would have ended up with EF fighting AB with file C as an overlap. But to do that file F would need to stop being in contact with C and move to be in contact with B. That seems to break the rule about conforming to the bases you are in contact with and then stepping forward as needed.

timurilenk · Post by **timurilenk** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:57 pm

Graham,

I am glad you asked this because it opens up all sorts of issues, as you suggest.

The diagram on page 64 is an example - as is the diagram on page 72 which clearly show elements conforming to elements they have not contacted.

I do, however, understand why you ruled this way and had no problem with the ruling on the day - it had no bearing on the game in the end.

Ian

timurilenk · Post by **timurilenk** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:21 pm

Here is a photo to explain it easier than ascii

The red cats have charged up the page at the enemy cats - the pike have intercepted - the question is:

How do the red cats conform?

Ian

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:45 pm

Looing at the photo I would say that the comform takes the charging cataphracts into fontact with just the enemy cataphracts and they lose contact with the pike but I am not sure that is what the rules say.

If the chargers don't conform then the following turn the defending cats conform but the pike can't.

Interesting......

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:15 am

Wouldn't it make sense if:

a...one base of the Cats conform to the base of the phalanx that intercepted them and then the righthand bas of Cats slides and moves into contact with the righthand enemy cats?...since the phalanx intercepted, contact should be maintained there for sure...

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:16 am

hammy wrote:Looing at the photo I would say that the comform takes the charging cataphracts into fontact with just the enemy cataphracts and they lose contact with the pike but I am not sure that is what the rules say.

If the chargers don't conform then the following turn the defending cats conform but the pike can't.

Interesting......

Since conforming is pivoting and sliding to "conform to the enemy bases in contact," how can the redcoats slip away from the Pikes?

NOT A RULES POINT: From the photo, it looks like the redcoats came from the lower left and could have wheeled a little to hit the bluecoats on file B instead of A, and the redcoats could and would have conformed in manoeuvre. From a historically minded player or umpire point of view, charging to contrive a bridge over file B represents nothing real and the charge direction should be adjusted slightly to hit file B, so the redcoats would afterwards conform (cleanly overlapped on each flank).

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:15 am

The righthand base lines up on the righthand Cat base. The lefthand Cat base pivots and steps forward to contact the lefthand Cat base. The Pike are in overlap. This is the minimum necessary move for both Cat bases. Both Cat bases end in full frontal contact with the enemy and the pike are still committed to the following melee phase. The Pkie could choose to move away in their own Maneuver phase, but that is another story. Shifting left is more than the minimum necessary to line up, so is not permitted.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:50 am

The rules problem is that you would be conforming to 1 of the enemy bases in contact and pulling away from the Pike in contact to conform to A and B.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:14 am

No. I remain in SIDE EDGE to SIDE EDGE contact with the Pike. The pike will fight as an overlap in the melee phase.
Step 1. Pivot both Cat bases so they are parallel to the front edge of the enemy bases. Since both enemy BGs are facing the same direction, and in side edge contact this is physically possible.
Step 2. Shift the minimum necessary to line up each base in contact with the enemy so that all bases are in either full front edge to front edge contact or ina valid overlap position. I may not break contact with the enemy bases already in contact with my bases. Shifting right is the shortest distance to line up the righthand Cat. Shifting left is not possible as it will cause the righthand Cat to move more than the minimum necessary to line up on an enemy base. The lefthand Cat must also shift right, and then because it cannot stop solely in corner to corner contact with the righthand file of pike, it must step forward to contact the lefthand enemy Cat. Thus it ends in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, and is still in edge contact with the Pike. This move is still shorter than sliding left to line up on the pike.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:32 am

timurilenk wrote:Here is a photo to explain it easier than ascii

The red cats have charged up the page at the enemy cats - the pike have intercepted - the question is:

How do the red cats conform?

Ian

Perhaps more a question of do they conform as they will break contact with one of the bases they are in contact with at impact?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:44 am

If they don't conform because they would break contact with the pike would you then say that if the pike and charged cats were in a line and the charging cats hit 1mm of the pike and 79mm of cats that they don't conform?

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:58 am

gozerius wrote:No. I remain in SIDE EDGE to SIDE EDGE contact with the Pike. The pike will fight as an overlap in the melee phase.
Step 1. Pivot both Cat bases so they are parallel to the front edge of the enemy bases. Since both enemy BGs are facing the same direction, and in side edge contact this is physically possible.
Step 2. Shift the minimum necessary to line up each base in contact with the enemy so that all bases are in either full front edge to front edge contact or ina valid overlap position. I may not break contact with the enemy bases already in contact with my bases. Shifting right is the shortest distance to line up the righthand Cat. Shifting left is not possible as it will cause the righthand Cat to move more than the minimum necessary to line up on an enemy base. The lefthand Cat must also shift right, and then because it cannot stop solely in corner to corner contact with the righthand file of pike, it must step forward to contact the lefthand enemy Cat. Thus it ends in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, and is still in edge contact with the Pike. This move is still shorter than sliding left to line up on the pike.

Sadly the rules say that you conform to the ones you are in contact with. Conforming is not going into side edge tho side edge contact with them.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:04 am

hammy wrote:If they don't conform because they would break contact with the pike would you then say that if the pike and charged cats were in a line and the charging cats hit 1mm of the pike and 79mm of cats that they don't conform?

In RAW, that would be OK if the cats hit one pike base and two cat bases in their charge. Then they are in contact with three enemy bases so can conform sensibly.

That's the reason I posted really, common sense says they should conform against the cataphracts, but RAW says they can't and - presumably - just stay where they are. It's an artificial construct of the basing - it these were single figures they'd hit the base in the middle.

I think this probably needs an author to have a look, and an FAQ entry. No doubt such would say they conform to the cataphracts.

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:20 am

The exact wording, if it helps:

"... must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slides bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
- Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge
contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position..."

So I can see Graham's point that if the red cataphacts conform to the blue
cataphracts, you are not conforming to the enemy bases in contact; it's not
conforming to an overlap as they aren't in overlap with the pike.

On my understanding then, the red cataphracts stay where they are (and the
left-hand bases of the blue cataphracts don't count in melee, but the pikes have
an overlap). In the next turn the blue cataphracts conform to the right-hand bases
of the red cataphracts. The pike can't conform so stay where they are.

The blue cataphracts could then move the left-hand bases to overlap on the right,
as they are not in front edge contact, nor contributing to the melee.

In the next turn, the reds still can't conform to the pike. In the next turn, the
pike could conform if the blue cataphracts bases had been moved to overlap on
the right.

Of course I may be totally wrong, and I would be very interested in an author's opinion.
We've had a few awkward situations like that in Italy, and I seem to do a lot of
umpiring, for better or for worse

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:48 am

peterrjohnston wrote:The exact wording, if it helps:

"... must (unless otherwise stated below or physically impossible) pivot and/or
slides bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact:
- Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge
contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position..."

So I can see Graham's point that if the red cataphacts conform to the blue
cataphracts, you are not conforming to the enemy bases in contact; it's not
conforming to an overlap as they aren't in overlap with the pike.

If the conforming was done catafracts to catafracts wouldn't the red catafracts be conforming into an overlap position on the pikes and so be legal?