Mounted Crossbows Oath of fealty

RobKhan · Post by **RobKhan** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:24 pm

Hi, I'm not as well read as most on medieval matters, but what little I have read says that Mounted Crossbow fought on foot.
This led me to have a think, and ask the question how do you reload a crossbow when on a horse in a battle, which is not the best platform for such a weapon? Did they use the winch or belt hook which foot used? I think this would be a very difficult drill while mounted. What stops the bolt from falling off when the horse moves around?

The western crossbowman was not as at home in the saddle with his weapon as a Steppe horse archer, so my gut feeling is that this type firing mounted could be a tad generous.

Happy to be enlightened

RobKhan

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:30 pm

Rob

I think that this should be a rules question. I have not read of mounted crossbows dismounting to fire but let me see if I can find a quote of exactly how they reloaded and fired while mounted.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:08 pm

RobKhan wrote:Hi, I'm not as well read as most on medieval matters, but what little I have read says that Mounted Crossbow fought on foot.
This led me to have a think, and ask the question how do you reload a crossbow when on a horse in a battle, which is not the best platform for such a weapon? Did they use the winch or belt hook which foot used? I think this would be a very difficult drill while mounted. What stops the bolt from falling off when the horse moves around?

The western crossbowman was not as at home in the saddle with his weapon as a Steppe horse archer, so my gut feeling is that this type firing mounted could be a tad generous.

Happy to be enlightened

RobKhan

Obviously they used a stirrup !

Seriously. I believe that European mounted crossbowmen used lighter crossbows that could be loaded by bracing the stock against their chest or something else (or possible might have been able to use a stirrup crossbow although that feels significantly more awkward from my experience with riding. The Chinese may have had a more sophistaced mechanism for use on horseback but I'm not as familiar with their technology.

Chris

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:18 pm

French Mounted Crossbowman with cranequin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frenc ... bowman.JPG

Cranequin Mechanism:

http://www.dhub.org/object/244736,bow

The European mechanisms seem to have been more sophisticated than I thought.

Chris[/url]

RobKhan · Post by **RobKhan** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:45 am

Thanks Guys, I tried wikki, but never found anything. I guess the issue for me now is when did the lever and cranequin mechanism start being used. The photo of the cranequin is dated 16th century which is outside the Oath of Fealty period.

The other issue could be, if in fact the first Mtd Xbows were weaker in power to enable mounted reload, what factors would you give them compared to the stronger foot crossbows of the same period? Rate of fire with these mechanisms is also an issue cf. foot.

Concerning keeping the bolt in place while preparing to shoot on horse back, I suppose keeping finger or thumb over it prior to release would help, but having never used one I have no idea.

Are there accounts of the use of the crossbow while mounted in battle inside the Oath of Fealty period? Did they skirmish or were they CV?

Still looking

RobKhan

ps It seems I'm doing this in the wrong part of the forum, can I transfer it all to the rules section?

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:06 am

RobKhan wrote: ps It seems I'm doing this in the wrong part of the forum, can I transfer it all to the rules section?

As requested.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:12 am

The crossbow used by mounted troops was lighter than that used by foot. Tactically they were used both as skirmishers, by the Swiss and Italians and others, or as with the Germans, as cavalry that would fire a volley and then charge. In FoG the lesser power of the mounted crossbow is represented by the lack of extended range.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:23 am

Having never heard of Mounted Crossbowmen dismounting to shoot, today I was reading 'Mercenaries and their Masters: Warefare in Renaissance Italy', by Michael Mallett. This was written in 1974 (I was reading the 2009 Pen & Sword reprint) so it might be dated.

On Page 152 he writes 'mounted crossbowmen... While it is probably true that such troops normally dismounted to fight'.

While a very interesting book, he does not give a reference for this so I have no way of cross checking. If you speak Italian, cross posting the question to the Italian forum might get a better answer.

RobKhan · Post by **RobKhan** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:45 am

For historical sources i have had the same problem, my 2 Ospreys on French and German Medievals say they fought on foot, and Dr Nicol in the Medieval Source book also says the same.....but with no reference to a primary source.

By fight on foot I mean use of crossbow. I am content with the mtd. sword where given.

Concerning the supposed tactic of shooting then charging, having read the wikki (not a source) it is possiblya tactic at the end of or later than Oath of fealty, because it refers to a small all metal crossbow. It doesn't sound like the wood, rope sinew sometimes metal etc construct typical of medieval period.

The books I have red refer to a unit of mtd xbows raised by various "states/nations/Kings" not a change in TO&E of mounted in general.

It really all comes down to primary sources covering how these units were used, or conjecture. So far I have not seen any sources and no-one has given any. If conjecture, it could be based on the nature of the technology, but I'm no expert on the tech. developmental timeline to say what was possible in the frame of Oath.

Another question popped into my mind. Does anyone have the dates of when these Mtd Xbow units were raised by any or all of the various regimes? - this could be useful info. that is missing from my books.

Rob

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:42 am

Well one problem is, there been Mtd. Crossbows and Crossbowmen mounted on horse (i.e. mounted infantry). The sesond group was much more numerous and since, not unlike English, the German terms tend to make it difficult to distinguish between them, it is not surprising there is a lot of confusion. There are definitely reports about some Mtd. Crossbows fighting (shooting) from their horses though. Although the skirmish capability they get in FoG (if one deep) is very hard to prove and IMO unlikely. They were used as flankers and expected to charge if an opportunity arised. That's one of the things that are probably unavoidable with a Rule System, unless you wish to overload it with details to the point where it becomes unplayable.

Side note: Note sure what Nicol you are refering to, but the Ospreys on Medieval German Armies are fraught with errors and misconceptions, frame the Plates, ditch the rest.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:29 am

Have you got any decent sources for German armies of this period? I've got a translation of Delbrueck's Art of War in the Middle Ages, But that was written over a hundred years ago. Most of the sources he referenced , I've never heard of.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:21 am

A decent source, albeit secondary, for the Battle of Worringen 1288 (no mounted crossbows though) is Jan Mahler's thesis on the battle. Available online. the main 'primary' source is Heelu's poem about the battle. There are also things like the Manessa Codex which gives some pictoral evidence of fighting styles.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:48 pm

While Delbruek is dated, I find that it is as good a start point as any, more often right than wrong.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:05 am

gozerius wrote:Have you got any decent sources for German armies of this period? I've got a translation of Delbrueck's Art of War in the Middle Ages, But that was written over a hundred years ago. Most of the sources he referenced , I've never heard of.

Depends, since you state you got a translation of Delbrück, am I to assume you are looking for sources in English? In that case the answer is no, not really. Although Verbruggen (The art of warfare in Western Europe during the Middle Ages) is always worth a look, if not very specific on medieval Germany.
If German language sources are ok I can send you a list of the books I referred to while writing the German lists in Oath (if I can find it that is). Most were not exactly easy readings though and one often needs to look hard for the interesting bits of information.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:12 am

German sources are OK. I know what you mean. They didn't have many embedded reporters back in the day. The University of Minnesota has an extensive research library with a large German language section. They even have a reprint of the Zuericher Wappenrolle, and some other good books on heraldry

Mounted Crossbows Oath of fealty

Mounted Crossbows Oath of fealty

Re: Mounted Crossbows Oath of fealty

http://www.dhub.org/object/244736,bow