Thracian Army

pezhetairoi · Post by **pezhetairoi** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:02 am

I have some interest in Thracians, and I thought it would be very reasonable to take some Greek Mercs ... Xenophon's Anabasis describes just that.

Suethes (SP?) makes a move for kingship and hires Xenophon and his gang to do some of the dirty work. He knew his hill-tribe army lacked some solid muscle and wanted to make fill the gap with hoplites. There were always Greeks around to be hired, especially after the Peloponnesian wars. And in true Thracian fashion Seuthes stiffs them on the bill after leading them on for a while!
So go ahead! hire some Greeks! They'll fall for it every time.

Otherwise, take lots of Light Foot. Skirmish, use lots of ambushes in thick terrain.
The Thracians with "light spear" also make cheap filler for the rear support -- if they don't get into the fight.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:07 am

My Thracians struggle with IC led armies in general due to the "umbrella effect". I haven't beaten Hannibal yet either. The chief tactic is to skirmish like crazy and disrupt, cause base losses from shooting. The MF is just a target that draws the enemy in. IC led armies are just plain hard to attrit through shooting cohesion losses. Plus those nasty argyraspids eat me alive. The pike usually just sit there looking stupid while the cav and MF chase off the skirmishers and then feast on my main battleline of MF/HW. Romans are easier because they are usually a smaller army and the support troops are softer.
My usual Thracian army looks like this:
4 TC
4 BG 8 x MF, average, undrilled, protected, HW
2 BG 4 x Cav, superior, undrilled, armored, Lsp/Sw
3 BG 8 x LF, average, undrilled, unprotected, Jav/Lsp
2 BG 6 x LH, average, undrilled, unprotected, Jav/Lsp
2 BG 4 x LH, average, undrilled, unprotected, bow
2 BG 6 x LF, average, undrilled, unprotected, bow

The main battleline is the 4 BGs of MF with 2 BGs of LF jav/Lsp screening in a single rank in front.
The cav provides rear support to the main line by deploying in column behind the seams of the MF BGs
The LH goes on the flanks along with the rest of the LF. Exact deployment is determined by the terrain. The LF will go to the side with more concealing/disrupting terrain, the LH will favor an open table edge. I'm working on some suitable MF/OSp BGs to swap out the MF HW guys on occasion, and can put out 3 BGs of LH, bow if I want to. Some day I'll have enough to do a Getic variant.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:39 am

gozerius wrote:My Thracians struggle with IC led armies in general due to the "umbrella effect". I haven't beaten Hannibal yet either. The chief tactic is to skirmish like crazy and disrupt, cause base losses from shooting. The MF is just a target that draws the enemy in. IC led armies are just plain hard to attrit through shooting cohesion losses. Plus those nasty argyraspids eat me alive. The pike usually just sit there looking stupid while the cav and MF chase off the skirmishers and then feast on my main battleline of MF/HW. Romans are easier because they are usually a smaller army and the support troops are softer.
My usual Thracian army looks like this:
4 TC
4 BG 8 x MF, average, undrilled, protected, HW
2 BG 4 x Cav, superior, undrilled, armored, Lsp/Sw
3 BG 8 x LF, average, undrilled, unprotected, Jav/Lsp
2 BG 6 x LH, average, undrilled, unprotected, Jav/Lsp
2 BG 4 x LH, average, undrilled, unprotected, bow
2 BG 6 x LF, average, undrilled, unprotected, bow

The main battleline is the 4 BGs of MF with 2 BGs of LF jav/Lsp screening in a single rank in front.
The cav provides rear support to the main line by deploying in column behind the seams of the MF BGs
The LH goes on the flanks along with the rest of the LF. Exact deployment is determined by the terrain. The LF will go to the side with more concealing/disrupting terrain, the LH will favor an open table edge. I'm working on some suitable MF/OSp BGs to swap out the MF HW guys on occasion, and can put out 3 BGs of LH, bow if I want to. Some day I'll have enough to do a Getic variant.

I dont think you should have a battle plan dependant on shooting with a thracian army. Youve got 4 BGs of LH and 5 of LF which IMO is way too many skirmishers. this forces your MF into front line troops with no left over MF to harass flanks.

Can you take a mix of MF with HW and MF wit LtSp/Sw and take more of them?

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:29 pm

expendablecinc wrote: I dont think you should have a battle plan dependant on shooting with a thracian army. Youve got 4 BGs of LH and 5 of LF which IMO is way too many skirmishers. this forces your MF into front line troops with no left over MF to harass flanks.

Can you take a mix of MF with HW and MF wit LtSp/Sw and take more of them?

I was just about to say the same thing. I think that the skirmishers + [solid troops] formula works best with shock troops of some sort: Kn (or any lancers), Pk, etc., that can hit decisively. The Prot/HW guys are grinders, and will have a hard time applying enough force at the crucial area to win with this army design. IMHO, of course.

Perhaps you should shift some resources away from skirmishers and buy more MF?

Marc

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:39 am

But the whole piont was to maximize skirmishers! I suppose I could trade in some skirmishers and buy the cheapo MF/Lsp to be my rear support. Then the cav (my best troops) could be used more decisively. Gotta paint 'em before I can use 'em, though.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:25 am

expendablecinc wrote: I dont think you should have a battle plan dependant on shooting with a thracian army. Youve got 4 BGs of LH and 5 of LF which IMO is way too many skirmishers. this forces your MF into front line troops with no left over MF to harass flanks.

Can you take a mix of MF with HW and MF wit LtSp/Sw and take more of them?

Well, you can take a mix of MF HW and MF Lt Sp Sw, but you can only take 24 bases of them, because of the date restrictions. So, maybe 2 BGs of HW and 2 BGs of LtSp/Sw? You think this Sw are better than the HW option?

So, to win against Pike armies, you would harass the flanks (with LH maybe?, trying to outskirmish him) using the powerful Cav in the main battle line, and trying to surround it with other MF? I mean, it's impossible to win against the pikes frontally, and if they have their flanks well protected they are invulnerable...
Maybe using the Lt Sp Swordsmen with a TC in the front line and with rear support? Because sending in the Cav there would be suicidal, unless they're disrupted..., but if they were, any thracian MF could beat them

Any more thoughts will be appreciated

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:40 pm

Valhalla wrote:
Well, you can take a mix of MF HW and MF Lt Sp Sw, but you can only take 24 bases of them, because of the date restrictions. So, maybe 2 BGs of HW and 2 BGs of LtSp/Sw? You think this Sw are better than the HW option?

So, to win against Pike armies, you would harass the flanks (with LH maybe?, trying to outskirmish him) using the powerful Cav in the main battle line, and trying to surround it with other MF? I mean, it's impossible to win against the pikes frontally, and if they have their flanks well protected they are invulnerable...
Maybe using the Lt Sp Swordsmen with a TC in the front line and with rear support? Because sending in the Cav there would be suicidal, unless they're disrupted..., but if they were, any thracian MF could beat them

Any more thoughts will be appreciated

Specifically vs pike you shoul be wasting minimal skirmishers to hold them up. if the phalanx has skirmishers of thier own use light horse. If they dont use your cheapest rubbish LF. In a pike army the flanks cant be as secure as the phalanx itself sure its likely to be a bg or two of either cataphracts, elephants or decent cavalry but there will be a lot less of them than your MF. Either the MF are going to win for you outof large terrain pieces or you are going ot have to find angles and force them to coem to you.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:42 pm

I agree you have way too many skirmishers. I have tried an army with 30 bases of lights with bows and slings. I could shoot like crazy but it was not very effective overall. Had some luck on the flanks breaking a unit or two but the skirmishers can't hold ground against the enemy which was Romans in this case. I have redone the army without most of the skirmishers, now 2 battlegroups of bows or 14 stands total. I am using Selcuids and brought back the Thracians to help hold any non-pike friendly terrain for me.
I agree that MF spears might be a better choice, keep them in something ugly where your enemy will be disordered and at least he will be losing dice giving you an advantage. I know it costs more points but can you take the drilled version of the troops? Much easier to get them to manouver around on the enemy flank if you can do it.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:05 pm

I've found that too many LF is a problem. They are great for the initial part of the battle, but once the heavier stuff starts to connect, they have little to do, and large BGs of LF are difficult to move about behind the lines or between BGs. (Although, those little 4paks of Numidian LF are fun!

Go with that Roman client stuff...the MF armoured Drilled LSp Swords in 4 paks...equivalent to Roman auxiliaries...nice stuff!!!!

will05 · Post by **will05** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:44 pm

gozerius wrote: Gotta paint 'em before I can use 'em, though.

.........and thats the thing with these babies!!!

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:26 pm

The thing with the 'upgraded' or drilled Thracians is that... they're not really Thracians

, at least that's what I think.

I mean, I would prefer to use the non Roman Client Kingdom version of this guys.

So, 14 bases of Skirmishers would be one BG of 8 and one BG of 6... maybe 18 bases could be better? Like three BGs of 6, two with bow and two with Javelins. Then two of LH, 4 each, with Javelins too. The max of Cavalry (that would be 8 bases), and a mix of HW and Off Sp MF warriors... maybe adding one or two BGs of Light Spear / Swordsmen?
The Mercenary Greeks seem tasty, like two BGs of 6 Drilled Off Sp (I think they MUST be protected), and one of Cav maybe. And of course the cheaper TC...

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:46 pm

Just try whatever combination interests you. Have fun with it. Go all skirmishers just about and see what happens!

And they're still Thracians...just not quite so wild! Gods know how they'd be formed and drilled, but the typical Thracian type clothing with wild looking scale mail and Thracian colours would be cool....sort of the forefathers of eventual auxiliaries...the first units formed.

I may have to try it sometime. Does have lots of LH and a tempting mob.

vakarr · Post by **vakarr** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:21 am

timmy1 wrote:Valhalla, are you Chris Webber under an assumed name? Chris has written some very interesting things about Thracians under FoG in Slingshot (265 IIRC). I recommend you look that out. I don't entirely agree with Chris's conclusions but he has a very good set of arguements.

Hi, No, he's not me -I haven't entered the Halls of Valhalla yet but Valhalla If you are interested in Thracians I suggest joining the Yahoo! Thracian group. You will also like my new book when it eventually gets published. I recommend the Dacians with Sarmatian allies as the best Thracian list - I've had a few successes with it. It's quite cost-effective to have your romphaia men as unprotected but Superior. The biggest problem with the Thracian army is the lack of a strong heavy cavalry force - you need at least three battlegroups of heavy cavalry of one sort or another to survive, and at least five of cavalry and light horse in total. This is where the Greek and Roman allies come in handy - they give you an extra cavalry unit!!! Generally speaking, there is only one pure Thracian army that will fight well - the Getic army - maximise those horse archers and though it may take a little longer to win, win you shall (unless perhaps if faced by an army of dual armed cavalry).

Don't disparage the Greeks too much - just get a small force of heavy infantry and you can usually find some point in your line that requires them (plus did I mention an extra cavalry unit?)

Now I'm going to try the Principate Thracian Swarm. If you use the Roman option I didn't realise until yesterday that you can actually get by without any MF at all!!. OK it's not as good as the Dominate version but you get an even bigger swarm if you like - at 800 points - 6 battlegroups of 4 Thracian armoured MF, 1 legionary HF, 2 Auxiliary armoured MF, 3 Cavalry battlegroups, two light horse battlegroups, 3 light foot battlegroups. All the MF can be HF if you wish.

Here's a variation on that list emphasising the HF (first number is deployment number):

No. Troop type Armour weapons Training Morale Number
1/1 Javelinmen LF Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 6
2/1 Bowmen LF Unprotected Bow Undrilled Average 6
3/1 Slingers LF Unprotected Sling Undrilled Average 6
4/1 Rhomphiamen MF Protected HW Undrilled Average 8
1/2 Romanised MF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
2/2 Romanised MF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
3/2 Auxiliary HF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
4/2 Thracian HF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
1/3 Thracian Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Superior 4
2/3 Light Horse Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 4
3/3 Auxiliary Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
4/3 Peltasts MF Protected LS Undrilled Average 8
1/4 Thracian Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Superior 4
2/4 Light Horse Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 4
3/4 Legionaries HF Armoured IF + SSw Drilled Superior 4
4/4 Legionaries HF Armoured IF + Sw Drilled Average 4

Generals: 1 IC, 1 TC, 1 Allied TC

In this list, the Thracian MF with light spear should be deployed in one rank behind the other foot to provide rear support - can support up to four other (average) battlegroups that way.

Chris W

vakarr · Post by **vakarr** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:29 am

timmy1 wrote:Will

You might find them a little more successful than you imagine. If you can use the Thracian Peltasts with the Macedonians they are a VERY good army. In period NOTHING beats Thracian Peltasts in nasty terrain. Indeed you probably have to go 11th century Guhlams before they are bested. I know from personal experience that getting Thracian Peltasts out of difficult going is almost impossible. If you can pair them with Theurophi (sp?) they make a very tough combination.

Actually there's nothing special about Thracian rhomphia men or peltasts- they are equal to just about everything, only being better than MF armed only with bow. The rhomphiamen are good points value as they are on average equal to much heavier troops but your average MF will be just as good against them. You need to have armour and swords to beat pikes or spears in uneven terrain.

vakarr · Post by **vakarr** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:50 am

Valhalla wrote:Do you use rear support, or you increase the width of the battle line? Do you have many problems with the thracians being undrilled? I mean, of course it's better Drilled, but any major complications?

The main problem is that you have to win on the flanks and it takes too long to move unwieldy 6 or 8 figure MF blocks around to charge into the flanks once you have won there. That's where having the drilled MF really helps. Having drilled cavalry also helps as often your cavalry will have to fight heavier types and drilled cavalry can skirmish more easily.

You need to outflank your opponent so usually you need to extend your battle line. That could mean filling the centre with LF and LH and putting the MF on the flanks. However, your opponent will usually have a shorter battleline than you and usually setup in a safely guarded position (difficult terrain on both flanks or occupying a corner). What you have to do is draw them out and dart through the gaps with your LH. That doesn't require rear support or beating up pikemen.

vakarr · Post by **vakarr** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:34 am

Valhalla wrote:The thing with the 'upgraded' or drilled Thracians is that... they're not really Thracians , at least that's what I think.

I mean, I would prefer to use the non Roman Client Kingdom version of this guys.

So, 14 bases of Skirmishers would be one BG of 8 and one BG of 6... maybe 18 bases could be better? Like three BGs of 6, two with bow and two with Javelins. Then two of LH, 4 each, with Javelins too. The max of Cavalry (that would be 8 bases), and a mix of HW and Off Sp MF warriors... maybe adding one or two BGs of Light Spear / Swordsmen?
The Mercenary Greeks seem tasty, like two BGs of 6 Drilled Off Sp (I think they MUST be protected), and one of Cav maybe. And of course the cheaper TC...

Foot skirmishers - well, they can do some good in combination with other troops eg shooting before a cavalry charge. The rest of the time they just get in the way and in my opinion should cost less points. I've had them swanning around an enemy's rear unable to do a thing as they can't shoot at troops in combat or charge anything in the open. I have only once seen them do much good in units of 8 (though 8 is the most efficient number for shooting from two ranks). The less points spent on them, the better. That means 18 bases in three battlegroups - one of bow, one of sling, and one of javelins. If you want to shoot, use the light horse - they can always charge or get away if necessary. You don't need LF with Javelins if you have a lot of MF. When faced by a cavalry army I found it useful to have an extra unit of LF and to match each LF unit with a spear-armed MF unit behind it. That made it possible to safely shoot up the cavalry. If you take the Greeks you have to take a poor LF with Javelins battlegroup, which is good value - shooters don't worry too much about being graded Poor. If you are facing armoured infantry your shooting will take a long time to have any effect, if any. Although it is better to shoot from 8 base units you need to have as many units as possible to skirmish successfully.

I would love to read some battle descriptions from the successful Thracian battles!! What terrain was used in those battles? Did you get advantageous terrain? I think you are lucky in your opponents and/or your terrain to win so well - how do you fill the terrain-free centre of the table or is it that you can effectively advance and retreat with drilled MF?

Chris

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:40 am

vakarr wrote: No. Troop type Armour weapons Training Morale Number
1/1 Javelinmen LF Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 6
2/1 Bowmen LF Unprotected Bow Undrilled Average 6
3/1 Slingers LF Unprotected Sling Undrilled Average 6
4/1 Rhomphiamen MF Protected HW Undrilled Average 8
1/2 Romanised MF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
2/2 Romanised MF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
3/2 Auxiliary HF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
4/2 Thracian HF Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
1/3 Thracian Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Superior 4
2/3 Light Horse Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 4
3/3 Auxiliary Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Average 4
4/3 Peltasts MF Protected LS Undrilled Average 8
1/4 Thracian Cavalry Armoured LS + Sw Drilled Superior 4
2/4 Light Horse Unprotected LS + Javelin Undrilled Average 4
3/4 Legionaries HF Armoured IF + SSw Drilled Superior 4
4/4 Legionaries HF Armoured IF + Sw Drilled Average 4

Generals: 1 IC, 1 TC, 1 Allied TC
Chris W

I've been really interested in trying this kind of Thracian list sometime (all medium foot though), but I like to think my armies have some basis in history. I don't know if this Thracian variation isn't historically based, but I don't know if it is either. Does anyone know if this kind of army was ever actually fielded by the Thracians, and if so, in what campaigns with what kind of success?

In addition, for people playing the Morally Bankrupt Thracian Swarm

, do you still use the same Thracian figures you use for ordinary Thracians (my are Xyston), or do you try and use something that is armored instead?

Peter C

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:54 am

For the Romanised troops they would be identical to Roman troops as it was a client state IIRC.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:49 am

I win by playing people who haven't figured out what they are doing with their army. I fought a Sarmatian army in steppe and crushed him. The key was to present a big, fat, juicy block of 4 BGs of 8 MF, HW screened by LF jav/LSp, with rear support provided by the cav. The flanks were covered by the rest of the LF and LH. Th e Sarmatians were using basicly the Rhoxoloni starter army, bulked up with 2 more BGs of cav. My skirmishers flushed his ambushes on our opening advance, chasing the LF off the gentle brush covered hill on our right flank, and keeping the LF hiding in the brush on our left flank nervous. My main line advanced and the skirmish line got close enough to crowd any second moves by his cavalry line. He charged the skirmish line and one BG rolled high on VMD, hitting the main line disrupting a BG of MF. Then after getting carved up in melee by double overlaps he broke off. Next turn the whole line charged except for the disrupted BG. My line held again (Thanks rear support!). More carving up overlapped cav BGs. One BG of lancers wandered over to try to scare my LH on the left, but was eventually shot to fragged, then charged to destruction by 3 BG of LH. They are great for making sure broken BGs never come back into the fight. I swarmed his left flank with all my LF, which had a big patch of broken ground to play in. The flank finally collapsed and my BG of LH on the right made sure that there would be no rallying.

If you are looking for an army with lots of real, free range Thracians, but with some punch, build a Lysimachid army.

vakarr · Post by **vakarr** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:22 am

pcelella wrote: I've been really interested in trying this kind of Thracian list sometime (all medium foot though), but I like to think my armies have some basis in history. I don't know if this Thracian variation isn't historically based, but I don't know if it is either. Does anyone know if this kind of army was ever actually fielded by the Thracians, and if so, in what campaigns with what kind of success?

In addition, for people playing the Morally Bankrupt Thracian Swarm , do you still use the same Thracian figures you use for ordinary Thracians (my are Xyston), or do you try and use something that is armored instead?

Peter C

I like my armies to have some historical basis, too, but some of the historical aspects of the Thracian list have been left out! Florus II, XXVII & Tacitus Annals II.67.1-4

The Dii, Odrysai, and Koilaletai launched an uncoordinated revolt against the Romans and their Thracian client king during 21AD. The largest proportion, and the most disciplined (equipped with Roman weapons), besieged King Rhoemetalces in Philippopolis. The rest crossed the Haemus range to stir up more remote tribes, or went roaming in quest of plunder or of reinforcements. When the Roman commander learnt about this, he sent some allied cavalry and light infantry to attack the latter, while he marched in person with the main body to raise the siege. The pillagers were cut to pieces; dissensions broke out among the besiegers, and the king made a well-timed sally just as the legion arrived. The revolt was crushed and the disorganised besiegers were slaughtered without loss to the Romans.

I would use Roman figures but the Hat Thracians look pretty good for this purpose