How to Model Roman Fear of Elephants at Heraklea

mbsparta · Post by **mbsparta** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:19 pm

We are fighting a MRR vs Pyrrhic battle tomorrow. I thought it might be interesting to add some elephant-fear flavor to the game. Of course MRR have a hard time against Successor armies as it is ... but:

1. Is it even worth the effort?

2. If it is, I was thinking of having Roman BG's take a CT to charge or if charged by elephants.

3. Or give the elephants an additional +1 POA vs Romans

Thanks for any suggestions or feedback.

Mike B

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:25 pm

Treat the Roman heavy foot like mounted near elephants.

daveallen · Post by **daveallen** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:29 pm

Used MRR against Classical Indian at the weekend - lost two Triari BGs and three H&P BGs and they didn't even scratch the nellies nail polish!

Believe me Romans don't need any further disadvantages against elephants!

Dave

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:23 pm

Ya, no kiddin'!! Though elephants can be very brittle, like those 2paks of Companions or 2paks of triarii. One unlucky death roll and poof. When they are good they just trample everything. We've seen two separate BGs of elpehants both vape in the same combat phase. Was a glorious day for Rome!!!!

Benvartok · Post by **Benvartok** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:23 am

As suggested having them react as mounted to Elephants should suffice without to much impact on the rules.

Get your light foot in front of them or Orlando Bloom if no light foot available

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:01 am

Benvartok wrote:Get your light foot in front of them or Orlando Bloom if no light foot available

Bow has a minus POA against Elephant, but indeed if bow is handled by Orlando Bloom...

DavidT · Post by **DavidT** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:36 pm

Bow actually have no POA against elephants (along with sling) so they are on 4 or better to hit.
Everything else gets a + POA, so velites with javelins are great against them.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:04 pm

DavidT wrote:Bow actually have no POA against elephants (along with sling) so they are on 4 or better to hit.
Everything else gets a + POA, so velites with javelins are great against them.

Yes, you are right! I remind it bad, but my memory has always been not good. So a bow handled by Orlando can make disasters against Elephants!

kal5056 · Post by **kal5056** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:43 pm

DavidT wrote:Bow actually have no POA against elephants (along with sling) so they are on 4 or better to hit.
Everything else gets a + POA, so velites with javelins are great against them.

Handgunners are the ultimate Nellie killer.
Hit on 3's and an auto minus 1 on tests for fire arms.

Gino
SMAC......ABB

mbsparta · Post by **mbsparta** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:30 am

Well; We fought our Heraklea tonight. And we did not add any special elephant rules. As things turned out Pyrrhus won a very un-Pyrrhic victory destorying three Roman Legions with only the loss of his camp and some archers. It turned out my little Romans were plenty afraid of elephants without any rule additions.

The Senate will be so pissed.

Publius Valerius Laevinus

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:44 am

Ya...elephants can stomp (just takes the little Roman 4paks losing 1 base and going disrupted to put them at 2 dice to 4)...or suddenly vape....makes them interesting.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:55 pm

Also makes the elephant player happy

TERRYFROMSPOKANE · Post by **TERRYFROMSPOKANE** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:09 pm

I don't think you need to modify the rules. Simply let the combat dice decide how fearful the Legionaries are of the Elephants.

Terry G.

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:29 pm

A -1 on morale tests is a bigger penalty than you might think in the first place...

It changes a no modifier moral test which you pass 21/36 = 58.3% to a test you fail 58.3% of the time. Going from "mostly passing" to "mostly failing" is pretty serious IMO. Getting the extra -1 in melee is also noteworthy that elephants provide that -1 not just in impact but in melee as well, which is not true of many other things (Impact foot, lancers) that provide similar minuses.

I have begun to wonder if elephants are just under-appreciated. If handled well they are pretty hard to kill (though very vulnerabel to bad luck). What you really have to avoid is giving up "extra" combat dice against them. If they are overlapped in melee they are in trouble or if ganged up on in shooting. But you should be able to mitigate both of those with some planning.

Sure an enemy BG could fight them in melee with 4 dice and if you lose you might have a very nervous death roll. But the enemy are facing a much worse prospecct overall most likely and if you win in melee and are not overlapped they can't be killed.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:22 pm

if you win in melee and are not overlapped they can't be killed.

Unless you get a crappy 1 on a death roll and find a sudden gap in your line because of it. Still I like them and will use them except against Blatherguts latest later Roman army with the 2 LF bows in back, first time out my elephants took 5 hits in the charge, against that army they will be getting replaced.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:23 pm

Ethan:

I had a similar thought, and used elephants in some Successor and Graeco-Bactrian armies for a while. I came to the conclusion that preventing overlaps was harder than it looked, especially as the game wore on. For example, if/when a BG of El broke an opponent, the El usually pursue into trouble. Also, charges to stop skirmisher shooting usually seem to end up making things worse.

To be fair, some portion of that trouble can be put down to pilot error, as I was still relatively inexperienced at the time. Perhaps brigading the El with some foot bows would help sort out the skirmisher issue.

Marc

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:28 pm

I've played with Classical Indians a few times and the combination of hefelumps and woosels (shooters) was more than my opponents could bear. Undrilled, so had extra toys to play with. The elephants kept the enemy mounted honest, and we always found some nice uneven terrain to park in. Light chariots were an excellent distraction and tough enough to deal with enemy attempts to turn a flank. I think it would be funny to buy all the cav as undrilled poor and announce that I'm +4 initiative, then send them off on a flank march to keep them out of harms way. Would probably roll for them to appear on turn 2.

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:34 pm

babyshark wrote:Ethan:

I had a similar thought, and used elephants in some Successor and Graeco-Bactrian armies for a while. I came to the conclusion that preventing overlaps was harder than it looked, especially as the game wore on. For example, if/when a BG of El broke an opponent, the El usually pursue into trouble. Also, charges to stop skirmisher shooting usually seem to end up making things worse.

I suspect having adequate amounts of your own LF is important.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:00 pm

ethan wrote:
babyshark wrote:Ethan:

I had a similar thought, and used elephants in some Successor and Graeco-Bactrian armies for a while. I came to the conclusion that preventing overlaps was harder than it looked, especially as the game wore on. For example, if/when a BG of El broke an opponent, the El usually pursue into trouble. Also, charges to stop skirmisher shooting usually seem to end up making things worse.
I suspect having adequate amounts of your own LF is important.

That may have been where I went wrong.

Marc

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:34 pm

You can get lots of lights in the Succesor armies not a lot in Bactrian armies though. I normally plant my elephants at either end of the pike block line. Keeps one flank covered and usually the lights are busy with the pikes, nice to know that elephants are not going to do an impetuous charge after anything so they are stable that way. Of course if they go down your pike flank is hanging out in the air but I still like them for the most part.
Working my way up to a classical Indian army for next year, starting Bactrians now, looking forward to actually seeing how chariots work since I know scythed chariots certainly don't.