Thinking about Teutonic Knights

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Stiglitz
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Thinking about Teutonic Knights

Post by Stiglitz »

Hello at all!

I am still thinking about starting a medieval army with knights. And I am still thinking about taking a later medieval one, because of the easy paint job.

On the other hand, it's alluring to make a teutonic army. Yes, I know, painting white is not easy... :cry:

I have a few ideas for the project and I'd like to hear you opinions...

First, I hope to use the central units (the knights, some military spear- or crossbow) for more than one teutonic army. I'd like to take this troops later for a Later Crusader army (with teutonics as military order) for Early Teutonic Order and for Later Teutonic Order. I think, the armour would have changed a bit in the time, but do you think I would be a real problem? Or were there significant changes in the appearance of these units?
Were there other units, that could be taken in all these armies, too? Feudal knights? Other spear or crossbows? Any cavalry or light horse or light foot?
Stiglitz
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Post by Stiglitz »

Second here is some material about the teutonic order, I found on the web:

"RitterBrudern (Brother Knight)
These monastic Knights were the Elite of the Order. Their equipment was the best available of the time comparable with that of the best Knights of Western Europe. A White Jupon marked with a black cross distinguished the RitterBrudern from other troops in the Order's forces. The number of RitterBrudern peaked in the period just prior to the battle of Tannenberg. The highest figure given by Historians is around 750 though the more accepted figure is around 500. Order records put the loss of RitterBrudern at Tannenberg as 203 (out of the 250 present). The loss of between a third and a half of their total numbers was in itself a disaster but this number included almost every senior officer of the Order.

DiendeBrudern
These Brothers were those not of Noble birth. Their military role was either as lesser men at arms forming the rear ranks to the RitterBrudern and HalbBrudern or as infantry. Their infantry role was usually that of an officer commanding non-Brethren foot. The closest equivalent would be that of an NCO in modern armies as usually a Lay or Brethren Knight had overall command. The Diendebrudern wore a light grey Jupon with a tau cross. A Tau cross is the shape of a capital T.

HalbBrudern (Half Brothers)
These were members of the Order but whose period of service and duties were less than the RitterBrudern or DiendeBrudern. Unlike these Brethren the HalbBrudern did not take monastic vows of service for life. These Half Brothers may well have been an attempt to encourage people unwilling to join the Order for life or those fulfilling lesser Crusader vows. The HalbBrudern wore a light grey Jupon with a tau cross. Unlike other Brethren of the Order it appears that the HalbBrudern were allowed to combine their family coats of arms with that of the Tau Cross. This may explain why examples of such have been found even though the Statutes of the Order expressly forbid such practises. That said even some Hochmeisters quartered their coats of arms with the Order's Cross."



After this information, I was thinking about painting the feudal knights as HalbBrudern. I would prefer the more unified look of the army, with drilled and undrilled knights still different looking. Do you think, this would be okay? Or would it be smiled at as a fantasy army :lol:

Third and last idea/question:
Any good manufacturer for teutonics? I had a look at Mirliton and I like them! Can I combine them (size-wise) with other companies for the units Mirlington doesn't produce.
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Post by madaxeman »

Mirliton are hard to beat, however for a full list try http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-ind ... ic+Knights If you find any mor elinks or info, you can add it to that page too :)

I also doubt anyone will hassle you over using the same figures for early/late knights - they aren't that far apart in dates, and their white surcoats cover much of the armour as well ...
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stenic
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Post by stenic »

I used Teutonic Knights at Roll Call this weekend to spectacular effect... they crashed and burned in all bar one game where the patron saint of knights must have passed by at the right time - I rallied 2 BGs on the JAP they were due to run off the table, and went to to record a full victory. My astonishment was surpassed only by my opponent's.

My figures are Essex I think (ebay purchase) but my leaders are Museum Miniatures. I'd not worry about the white for painting, I just Future inked the entire figure and it looks good on the table.

Image

The Later army in FOG is fun but unforgiving. In previous games I'd concluded the foot is all a bit rubbish so just took Knights, Turcopoles and some LF plus the mounted crossbow. I learnt loads over the weekend (particularly playing outside of the group I normally play) where I generally got pulled apart by LF whilst my LH were busy getting tied up on the flanks. I was too aggressive and with hindsight suspect my deployment could have been better, I should have had my LH see off the LF and worried less about wild goose chases on the flanks and next time will change by deployment order. Knights like open spaces so no point in keeping them till last - it's not like they're a surprise.

Not tried the Early army yet but will do soon. As regards figures I shall be using the same ones and those that worry about this can in their own time :)

Steve P
Stiglitz
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Post by Stiglitz »

thanks for the answers so far...

@madaxeman:
thanks for the link... I knew your page already. It's an excellent resource for information, thank you very much.

@stenic:
thanks for the infos about the Later Teutonics... my army books are ordered... :)
What do you mean, when you say "future inked"?
stenic
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Post by stenic »

Stiglitz wrote:
@stenic:
What do you mean, when you say "future inked"?
Wash the figure with a mix of Future floor polish and ink/paint. Future is also known as 'Klear' or 'Pledge with Future'.

http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

Many gamers use it to provide quick and simple shading, it also provides a reasonable varnish (although glossy). Paint the figure, coat with undiluted Future, allow to dry then coat again with mix of Future and ink / thinned paint. The solution will 'drain' into the recesses and so dry darker there. You needto start with bright colours though as they can end up looking dirty.

Steve P
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Post by madaxeman »

stenic wrote:I used Teutonic Knights at Roll Call this weekend to spectacular effect... they crashed and burned in all bar one game where the patron saint of knights must have passed by at the right time - I rallied 2 BGs on the JAP they were due to run off the table, and went to to record a full victory. My astonishment was surpassed only by my opponent's.
The Later army in FOG is fun but unforgiving. In previous games I'd concluded the foot is all a bit rubbish so just took Knights, Turcopoles and some LF plus the mounted crossbow. I learnt loads over the weekend (particularly playing outside of the group I normally play) where I generally got pulled apart by LF whilst my LH were busy getting tied up on the flanks. I was too aggressive and with hindsight suspect my deployment could have been better, I should have had my LH see off the LF and worried less about wild goose chases on the flanks and next time will change by deployment order. Knights like open spaces so no point in keeping them till last - it's not like they're a surprise.
Steve P
Sounds like some imminent additions to the Teutonic "Army usage" section of the Wiki can be expected then :?: 8)
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stenic
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Post by stenic »

Shortly :D

Still trying to find the words that will do justice to your site and not have Hannibal think I'm inept ;-)

Oddly, your site violates the firewall at work by being deemed 'social and networking' so I can't view it. This forum does not constitute such and so is allowed :)

Steve P
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Post by pcelella »

stenic wrote: Wash the figure with a mix of Future floor polish and ink/paint. Future is also known as 'Klear' or 'Pledge with Future'.

http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

Many gamers use it to provide quick and simple shading, it also provides a reasonable varnish (although glossy). Paint the figure, coat with undiluted Future, allow to dry then coat again with mix of Future and ink / thinned paint. The solution will 'drain' into the recesses and so dry darker there. You needto start with bright colours though as they can end up looking dirty.

Steve P
I have used Future to shade white, but mine always comes out a lot "dirtier" than the ones in your photo are. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what color ink/paint did you use with the Future, and approximately, what was the ration of ink to Future?

Thanks

Peter C
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Post by Stiglitz »

I was looking for a way to use the new Games Workshop Washes, but I fear, they are - though excellent - the wrong tool for the job. A very thinned ink would be better than a wash (I never was quite sure about the difference, but now I THINK I understand it)...

So, I am interested in the future-Ink mix, too...

Anyone else 's got experiences with painting white in 15 mm.
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Post by stenic »

madaxeman wrote:
Sounds like some imminent additions to the Teutonic "Army usage" section of the Wiki can be expected then :?: 8)
Typed up loads but got a database error on preview and lost all my additions so decided to give up :(

Steve P
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Post by stenic »

pcelella wrote:
I have used Future to shade white, but mine always comes out a lot "dirtier" than the ones in your photo are. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what color ink/paint did you use with the Future, and approximately, what was the ration of ink to Future?

Thanks

Peter C
Err... I forget, I just played until it looked ok, although it was probably at least 1:5 ink & paste combo (dark brown ink and burnt umbe) to Future. That said, I forgot one step; I did highlight after with white but only the very raised or large flat areas, such as the hoods and horse covers. No more than a few strokes per figure & mount though.

Steve P
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Re: Thinking about Teutonic Knights

Post by ravenflight »

Stiglitz wrote:On the other hand, it's alluring to make a teutonic army. Yes, I know, painting white is not easy... :cry:
I disagree. I think painting white is dead easy. It's possibly one of the easier colours to paint and get a realistic appearance.

Remember, these are guys who have been fighting in the field. Their 'white' isn't going to be 'freshly laundered and go light on the starch'. It's going to be a corrupted white.

Personally, I'd use something like a white stone colour. Then you can use your titanium whites for highlites which really bring the figures features up.

If you do the whole bunch titanium white, then it will lose all the details.

Just a thought.
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Post by madaxeman »

stenic wrote:
madaxeman wrote:
Sounds like some imminent additions to the Teutonic "Army usage" section of the Wiki can be expected then :?: 8)
Typed up loads but got a database error on preview and lost all my additions so decided to give up :(

Steve P
Hmmm - not heard of that but then again I never bother with "preview", as I find that its so easy to amend it once its actually saved. :?
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Post by johno »

Off Topic @ Stenic: I always find the best approach with any on-line post that will require significant typing is to do it off-line in Notepad or similar, and then paste it in.

That way, if it goes tits up, you can just paste it again...


Back On Topic: I helped a mate do some 15mm Teutonics a while ago.
We primed in white, used multiple ink washes on the exposed bits of the horses, painted the flesh and non-white bits, touched up a few mistakes, and then hit the whole lot with a very thin black wash.

One or two figures went a bit darker than we wanted, but a quick drybrush of white sorted them out.

Overall quite quick, but might have been even quicker if we'd used paint washes rather than ink on the horses - we had to re-visit some of them two or three times to get the colour depth we wanted.

johno
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Post by Stiglitz »

@ johno

interesting technic... I'd thought about something similar, but was afraid, it would end too greyish...

What ink did you use and how much did you thin it? Did you add something? Dry retarder or soap?
johno
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Post by johno »

As far as I remember we used a very, very, very thin wash of acrylic black paint

The first few tries were too thin, and hardly visible when dry, but we simply gave those another coat later

We used some of the Games Workshop inks, and some Windsor and Newton (I think - an art shop type brand, anyway) drawing on the horses. Workshop didn't have the range of colours we wanted.

As an aside, if you buy artist's drawing inks, read the labels carefully: some of them aren't waterproof when dry! In fact some of them aren't even vaguely water-resistant, and will leach into other colours you put over them, like when you are painting the horse harness, for example...

johno
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Post by Skullzgrinda »

Try artists' acrylic medium diluted with water and tinted with paint. This makes a more viscous glaze which is easier to control. The acrylic media come in gloss, semi=gloss and matte, but will always need a matte spray if one desires a flat surface. Great effects that bring out the detailson a good sculpt.

Here are some examples:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/blick ... c-mediums/

http://www.artsuppliesunlimited.com/wineacme23.html
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Post by babyshark »

Because this thread has wandered into topics more appropriate for "Modelling" I have used my mod powers to slide it to the more appropriate forum.

Marc
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Post by philqw78 »

babyshark wrote:Because this thread has wandered into topics more appropriate for "Modelling" I have used my mod powers to slide it to the more appropriate forum.

Marc
Note the tag line on Marc's location and also that power corrupts.
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