Early vs Mid vs Late Romans

[Untitled]

I'm new to FoG and am looking at starting a Roman army. I was curious about the pros and cons of each period and what makes each of them distinct. I'm reading a general introduction to the Roman Empire. Any other suggested reading for a complete Noob other than the Osprey and army books? What are people's thoughts regarding Gibbon's Decline and Fall? Is it still a well regarded source?

[Blathergut]

Mid-Republican Romans

Pros:

-superior HF (but only 16)
-2pak rear support in form of elite triarii
-superior armoured allied MF (but only 4)
-Numidian ally will give you two BGs of 2 elephants (makes up for less HF)
-LF in 4paks (velites and Numidian allied LF)(and Cretans!)

Cons:

-not much in the way of any support troops (but some would see this as a good thing)
-cavalry armoured but average

[Blathergut]

Late Republican Romans

Pros:

-as many superior HF as you want
-elite HF!! (has anyone actually used them??!!??)
-superior armoured cavalry
-more choice of support troops

Cons:

As with the earlier Romans, BGs of 4 HF can be fragile. One loss and it's -25%.

[Blathergut]

Principate Romans

Pros:

-superior HF (as many as you should need)
-LF support to makes the Romans 6paks (better able to take hits and keep hitting)
-better mounted choices (superior LH archers!!)
-LF support to HF BGs!!!
-armoured drilled MF auxiliaries
-LF support to HF BGs!!!
-LF (poor slings) in BGs of 4 @ 8pts for the BG!!!!!!! (two of them!!)

Cons:

-ummmm....

[Skullzgrinda]

I'm new to FoG and am looking at starting a Roman army. I was curious about the pros and cons of each period and what makes each of them distinct. I'm reading a general introduction to the Roman Empire. Any other suggested reading for a complete Noob other than the Osprey and army books? What are people's thoughts regarding Gibbon's Decline and Fall? Is it still a well regarded source?

Are you looking at this with a love of history or to maximize a tournament army?

Gibbon is thorough (God help us!) but very turgid. He also wrote with more limited sources of information than we enjoy today. Are you looking for the historical overview or to get a flavor of the period, some "atmosphere"?

[babyshark]

Principate Romans

<snip>

Cons:

A greater or lesser amount of moral bankruptcy.

FYP.



Marc

[Skullzgrinda]

Principate Romans

<snip>

Cons:

A greater or lesser amount of moral bankruptcy.

FYP.



Marc

Eh? I thought that was Dominate Romans?

[Untitled]

Are you looking at this with a love of history or to maximize a tournament army?

Gibbon is thorough (God help us!) but very turgid. He also wrote with more limited sources of information than we enjoy today. Are you looking for the historical overview or to get a flavor of the period, some "atmosphere"?

Thanks for the info so far. To the first question, I've been checking out a lot of the various minis that are available. So I guess not really history or tourneys but rather painting. Although keeping competitive isn't a bad thing. Legionaries, pikemen and elephants have caught my eye and a quick preview of the lists seems to mean the Rise of Rome book. As far as the reading, I'd like a bit of a historical overview to sort of fill in the pieces between my art history class and HBO's Rome. I figure the "atmosphere" would come by default.

[Blathergut]

Principate Romans

<snip>

Cons:

A greater or lesser amount of moral bankruptcy.

FYP.



Marc

There was a time when Romans ever had some?...Ya know...studying history, try finding one group who had any!

[Skullzgrinda]

Principate Romans

<snip>

Cons:

A greater or lesser amount of moral bankruptcy.

FYP.



Marc

There was a time when Romans ever had some?...Ya know...studying history, try finding one group who had any!

The Punic Wars. The Roman Republic - the REAL republic, not the proto empire and empire of Pompey, Caesar and Diocletian et alia, was awesome.

[Blathergut]

FYP.



Marc

Hannibal had it right about the Romans: greed. Every war was over greed. But not just the Romans...everybody then fought for gain.


There was a time when Romans ever had some?...Ya know...studying history, try finding one group who had any!

The Punic Wars. The Roman Republic - the REAL republic, not the proto empire and empire of Pompey, Caesar and Diocletian et alia, was awesome.

[benos]

well if you are going for the best figures i suspect Corvus belli and thier mid -or late republic may sway you?

FOG in a way is nice as it is no longer the default foderate roman being the best choice, each roman army has its benifits (and they actually work to an extent)

in terms of Gibbon, i downloaded the first part onto my iplayer (on my phone) from librivox for free, makes it a little more accesible? must get round to getting the rest (basicaly a volunteer has read and recorded the work in chapters and you can download for free...but it is all stuff in the public domain)

Ben

[ValentinianVictor]

I'm new to FoG and am looking at starting a Roman army. I was curious about the pros and cons of each period and what makes each of them distinct. I'm reading a general introduction to the Roman Empire. Any other suggested reading for a complete Noob other than the Osprey and army books? What are people's thoughts regarding Gibbon's Decline and Fall? Is it still a well regarded source?

The below comes from a list I published on several other sites, it is not exhustive, I've added more books to the collection but not added them to the list as of yet.

'I am sure all of us have at one time or another experienced the frustration of attempting to find information and books that cover our particular ancient armies and nations of interest.
To this end I thought I would share the book list I have compiled from my own collection that covers a wide range of topic concerning the Later Roman Empire.
Please note that the comments made about the books are purely mine and your own thoughts and comments may differ.


THE LATE ROMAN ARMY

Martijn Nicasie (1998)- ‘Twilight of Empire: The Roman army from the reign of Diocletian until the battle of Adrianople’-
Hugh Elton (2004)- ‘Warfare in Roman Europe, AD 350-425’
Richard Cromwell (1998)- ‘The Rise and Decline of the Late Roman Field Army’
Phil Barker (1981)- ‘The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome’
John Peddie (1997)- ‘The Roman War Machine’
Pat Southern & Karen R. Dixon (2000)- ‘The Late Roman Army’
Benjamin Isaac (2004)- 'The Limits of Empire- The Roman Army in the East'
A. D. Lee (2007) 'War in Late Antiquity: A Social History'
M. C. Bishop & J. C. N. Coulston (2006) 'Roman Military Equipment From the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome'
Adrian Goldsworthy (2004) 'The Complete Roman Army'
Adrian Goldsworthy (2007) 'Roman Warfare'


Of the above books ‘Twilight of Empire’ and ‘Warfare in Roman Europe’ are absolute essentials. To be honest if you buy ‘Twilight of Empire’ then there is no need to waste your money on Cromwell’s over-priced and under researched book. Crowell’s only saving grace in my eyes is that he agreed that the Roman cavalry during this period were prone to brittleness. If you have more money than sense, or can find a cheap copy as I did, then by all means purchase Cromwell’s book, otherwise just stick with 'Twilight of Empire'. A word of caution here about ‘The Late Roman Army’. Whilst it contains much that is of interest, it also contains a number of errors and mistakes, some of them quite glaring. Take a look near the beginning under the table of Emperor’s for example. Valens is quoted as dying from a natural death. I don’t know about you, but I thought that being shot by an arrow then being burned alive does not equate to a natural death! The table is also wrong as he was Emperor of the East, therefore both he and Valentinian should appear under the table of the Divided Empire. Peddies book is a good source book on all aspects of a Roman army, from supplies, baggage, to building field and permanent fortifications. Phil Barker’s book is essential for history buffs and wargamer’s alike. Full of illustrations, will keep figure painters amused for hours! Goldsworthy's books are a bit 'thin' when it comes to the Later Roman Empire and what he says is not always correct. Bishop & Coulston are to be recommended for an very good insight into the equipment used.


THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE AND IT’S ENEMIES

Herwig Wolfram (1990)- ‘The History of the Goths’
Peter Heather (2007)- ‘The Goths (The Peoples of Europe)
Peter Heather (1991)- ‘Goths and Romans, 332-489’
Michael Kulikowski (2007)- ‘Rome’s Gothic Wars: From the Third Century to Alaric’
Thomas S. Burns (1995)- ‘Barbarians within the Gates of Rome: Study of Roman Military Policy and the Barbarians, 375-425 AD’
Alessandro Barbero (2007)- ‘The Day of the Barbarians: The Battle that led to the fall of the Roman Empire’
John F. Drinkwater (2007)- ‘The Alamanni and Rome 213-496 (Caracalla to Clovis)’
Beate Dignas & Englebert Winter (2007)- ‘Rome and Persia in Late Antiquity: Neighbours and Rivals’
Michael H. Dodgeon & Samuel N.C. Lieu (2003)- ‘The Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars (AD 226-363)’
Geoffrey Greatrex & Samuel N.C. Lieu (2002)- ‘The Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars (AD 363-628)’
Dr Kaveh Farrokh (2007) 'Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War'
David S. Potter (2007) 'The Roman Empire at Bay AD 180 - 395'
Herwig Wolfram (1997) 'The Roman Empire and its Germanic Peoples'


All of the above books I would consider worthy of being in the library of anyone interested in the Late Roman Empire and those who it fought against. Barbero’s book is good for references, but he relies too much on the Osprey ‘Adrianople’ book for information about that battle and falls into the trap of supporting the author of the above books belief that the Goths had wagon barricades, purely because that author does not believe that the wagon laager could be circular due to the number of wagon’s he surmises must have been present. These barricades are not mentioned by any ancient author. Farrokh has been critised for making too many assumptions, but due to the lack of material on the Sasanid Empires armies I have included it for completness.


THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE

A.H.M. Jones (1973 1st reprint)- ‘The Later Roman Empire 284-602: A Social, Economic and Administrative Survey’
Averil Cameron (1993)-‘The Later Roman Empire'
John Mathews (2008)- ‘The Roman Empire of Ammianus’
R. Malcolm Errington (2006)- 'Roman Imperial Policy from Julian to Theodosius'
R. C. Blockley 'East Roman Foreign Policy: Formation and Conduct from Diocletian to Anastasius'
Stephen Mitchell (2007) 'A History of the Later Roman Empire AD 284-641'
Ranuccio Bianchi Bandinelli-'Rome, the late Empire;: Roman art, A.D. 200-400 (Arts of mankind series)'



There are a vast number of books out there dealing with the Later Roman Empire. I chose these in particular as they cover all the bases as far as I am concerned. Jones work is still widely available in a 1986 reprint. Matthews has been slated for his books over-indulgence. However, the man’s passion for Ammianus and the age he lived in is totally forgivable in my opinion. 'Rome- The Late Empire' is an absolute treasure and should be sought out at all costs!

THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

Peter Heather (2006)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History’
Arthur Ferrill (1990)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: The Military Explanation’
Michael Grant (2003)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire’
Bryan Ward-Perkins (2005)- ‘The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization’

Again, there are a vast amount of books that deal with the fall of the Roman Empire. The ones above are thought to be essential reading.
Heather, Ferrill and Ward-Perkins all argue that it was the ‘barbarians’ who led to the direct downfall of the Roman Empire. Grant takes a different view, believing that social factors led to the fall.

ANCIENT AUTHORS WHO COVER THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE

Ammianus Marcellinus- ‘Res Gestae’ (Various translations are widely available, also online for free)
Anonymous- ‘De Rebus Bellicis’ (Translated by E. A. Thompson 1952)
Anonymous- 'Chronicon Paschale 284-628D' (Translated by Whitby & Whitby)
Aurelius Victor- 'De Caesaribus' (Translated by H.W. Bird)
Claudian (Various translations available, also online for free)
Eutropius (Various translations available, also online for free)
Eunapius, Olympiodorus, Priscus and Malchus in 'The Fragmentary Classicising Historians of the Later Roman Empire' (Translated by R. C. Blockley)
Festus- Brevarium (online for free)
Jordanes – ‘The Origin and Deeds of the Goths’ (Translated by Charles C. Mierow (1908)
Julian- ‘The Works of Julian the Emperor’ (Various translations, some of which can be found online for free)
Libanius- ‘Oratations’ ‘Letters’ etc (Various translations are available, some of which are online for free)
Paulus Orosius- ‘The Seven Books of History Against the Pagans’ (Translated by Roy J.Deferrai)
Sozomon (Various translations available, also online for free)
Themistius Select Oratations etc (Various translations are available)
Various- 'In Praise of Later Roman Emperors: The Panegyrici Latini' by C.F.V Nixon and Barbara Saylor Rodgers.
Vegetius- ‘The military institutions of the Romans’ (Various translations, can be found online for free)
Zosimos ‘Historia Nova’ (Various translations, can be found online for free)

All of these translations are essential for those who want to read the history directly from those who were there to either witness it, or were living contemporary with the age they are describing.

Well there you have it, your be broke buying all that lot, but your have some of the best books on the Later Roman Empire to show for it!

[nikgaukroger]

Phil Barker’s book is essential for history buffs and wargamer’s alike.

I'd only suggest this as a starting point these days on the basis it has stuff in one place - it really is rather outdated now.

THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE AND IT’S ENEMIES


Peter Heather (1991)- ‘Goths and Romans, 332-489’

Of Heather's books read this one - the rest don't add much and, IMO, go backwards in historical analysis

Thomas S. Burns (1995)- ‘Barbarians within the Gates of Rome: Study of Roman Military Policy and the Barbarians, 375-425 AD’

Not an easy read but a must.

THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

Peter Heather (2006)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History’
Arthur Ferrill (1990)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: The Military Explanation’
Michael Grant (2003)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire’
Bryan Ward-Perkins (2005)- ‘The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization’

Guy Halsall (2007) - "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West" kicks the pitiful arses of the above IMO.

[paulburton]

If your interest is the earlier periods then I can recommend some of the following:

Mid-Republic
Polybius: The Rise of Rome (Penguin Classics)
Adrian Goldsworthy: The Punic Wars, In the Name of Rome (all periods - military biographies)
John Peddie: Hannibals War

Late Republic
Caesar: The Gallic Wars, The Civil War
Sallust: The Jugurthine War
Tom Holland: Rubicon
Adrian Goldsworthy: Caesar
JFC Fuller: Julius Caesar
Shakespeare: Julius Caesar

Principate
Cassius Dio: The reign of Augustus
Tacitus: Annals of Imperial Rome, The Histories, Agricola, Germania
Suetonius: Twelve Caesars
John Peddie: Invasion, The Roman Conquest of Britain
Graham Webster: The Roman Army, The Roman Invasion of Britain, Rome against Caractacus
Robin Seager: Tiberius
Robert Graves: I, Claudius, Claudius the God (good for colour)
Stoneman: Palmyra and its Empire

Dominate/Foederate
John Julius Norwich: Byzantium, The Early Centuries (from Constantine onwards)

I can also recommend Colin McEvedy's Penguin Atlases of the Ancient and Medieval Worlds

My own preference is for the Late Republic/Early Principate periods. I Claudius was probably the biggest influence in concentrating on the Augustan period (Initially Germanicus but I am now most interested in Tiberius). Caesar is also a big draw. Later on you could go with Severus, Severus Alexander, Aurelian, Claudius Gothicus, Constantine, Julian and Aetius. There are plenty more but these are the ones that occur off the top of my head.

My recommendation is to choose a favourite commander and use that as the basis of your army. Obvious choices are Scipio, Marius, Sulla, Lucullus, Pompey, Caesar, Agrippa, Tiberius/Drusus, Germanicus, Plautius, Corbulo, Vespasian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius all spring to mind.

If you like 'Rome' then Late Republican is probably the one for you. choose from Pompey and his sons, Caesar, Cassius and Brutus (the Assassins), Octavian/Agrippa or Mark Antony and if you want to add a few pikes then Cleopatra's Egyptians can be included. (Donnington do a nice 'Zenobia' figure that will pass muster as the Queen of Egypt).

[ValentinianVictor]

Phil Barker’s book is essential for history buffs and wargamer’s alike.

I'd only suggest this as a starting point these days on the basis it has stuff in one place - it really is rather outdated now.

THE LATER ROMAN EMPIRE AND IT’S ENEMIES


Peter Heather (1991)- ‘Goths and Romans, 332-489’

Of Heather's books read this one - the rest don't add much and, IMO, go backwards in historical analysis

Thomas S. Burns (1995)- ‘Barbarians within the Gates of Rome: Study of Roman Military Policy and the Barbarians, 375-425 AD’

Not an easy read but a must.

THE FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE

Peter Heather (2006)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History’
Arthur Ferrill (1990)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire: The Military Explanation’
Michael Grant (2003)- ‘The Fall of the Roman Empire’
Bryan Ward-Perkins (2005)- ‘The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization’

Guy Halsall (2007) - "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West" kicks the pitiful arses of the above IMO.

I agree about Barker's book, it is sorely in need of a complete update. I've got Halsall's book, plus Heather's latest one about the Barbarian Migrations, and Goldsworthy's latest book on the fall of the Roman Empire in the West, but have not added them to my list yet. I've also got another large book about Late Roman Art which I will add as soon as I can get to my book collection, now hidden under piles of other stuff since my decorating extravaganza! In fact, I've got a whole slew of books that I may add to the list, just to show how much money I've invested in my research (I hope my woman does not ever get to read it, or work out how much it has cost me!!!)