Turn 180 and advance

[marioslaz]

A 'counter march' is quite a simple manouver. A turn as outlined in the rulebook is all but impossible. Anything remotely like a turn would be a left or right 'form', which is effectively a wheel. This assumes you want to keep the same file leaders in the same place. If you don't care about having the file leaders in the same place then an about face is far far easier than a turn and maintain rank frontage.

This is not always true. Ancient hoplites didn't execute a simple countermarch to make a 180 turn, this because first line should be maintained. I mean that after 180 turn the front line of the BG should be formed by the same men. This was accomplished by ' doubling the files' (the even file of 8 men marched ahead of the file to their left to form a file of 16 men, but with the space of a file between them and the next file). After this, each file marched performing a U conversion (so firs man of each file was still first man in the new facing). At last, they 'halved the file' recomposing the formation. I try to explain better the operation of doubling:

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[ravenflight]

This is not always true. Ancient hoplites didn't execute a simple countermarch to make a 180 turn, this because first line should be maintained. I mean that after 180 turn the front line of the BG should be formed by the same men. This was accomplished by ' doubling the files' (the even file of 8 men marched ahead of the file to their left to form a file of 16 men, but with the space of a file between them and the next file). After this, each file marched performing a U conversion (so firs man of each file was still first man in the new facing). At last, they 'halved the file' recomposing the formation. I try to explain better the operation of doubling:

Mario, you're just described a counter march... which is what I said. A counter-march is not the same as an about turn. Here's a URL of a rather poor counter march performed by a rather poor marching band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRU5173hcQU

[marioslaz]

This is not always true. Ancient hoplites didn't execute a simple counter march to make a 180 turn, this because first line should be maintained. I mean that after 180 turn the front line of the BG should be formed by the same men. This was accomplished by ' doubling the files' (the even file of 8 men marched ahead of the file to their left to form a file of 16 men, but with the space of a file between them and the next file). After this, each file marched performing a U conversion (so firs man of each file was still first man in the new facing). At last, they 'halved the file' recomposing the formation. I try to explain better the operation of doubling:

Mario, you're just described a counter march... which is what I said. A counter-march is not the same as an about turn. Here's a URL of a rather poor counter march performed by a rather poor marching band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRU5173hcQU

In effect I had in mind an about turn of 180 degree rather than a counter march. Anyway, ancient hoplites didn't march on asphalted road with t-shirt, shorts and foot wear. To make a counter march was a difficult manoeuvre and even worse they started from a dense formation (in video band elements march as hoplites after doubling lines). I remember a very accurate game of late '80 (Hoplite Warfare) where to make a such manoeuvre with an hoplite unit was a pain.

[ravenflight]

I remember a very accurate game of late '80 (Hoplite Warfare) where to make a such manoeuvre with an hoplite unit was a pain.

Yes, but you're forgetting the original point of my post.

Tell me HOW a drilled BG of Hoplites would do a 90 degree turn and advance without any further difficulty.

My issue isn't how hard or easy doing the 180 degree turn and move is by itself. It is in comparison with a 90 degree turn and move.

The rules allow Drilled Hoplites to do a 90 degree turn and move (indeed, you can do a 90 degree turn and wheel!!!), but it is impossible to do the more simple 180 degree turn and move. Except for 'it makes for a better game' I'm yet to hear anything that says that the rules haven't got it wrong.

[philqw78]

I remember a very accurate game of late '80 (Hoplite Warfare) where to make a such manoeuvre with an hoplite unit was a pain.

Yes, but you're forgetting the original point of my post.

Tell me HOW a drilled BG of Hoplites would do a 90 degree turn and advance without any further difficulty.

My issue isn't how hard or easy doing the 180 degree turn and move is by itself. It is in comparison with a 90 degree turn and move.

The rules allow Drilled Hoplites to do a 90 degree turn and move (indeed, you can do a 90 degree turn and wheel!!!), but it is impossible to do the more simple 180 degree turn and move. Except for 'it makes for a better game' I'm yet to hear anything that says that the rules haven't got it wrong.

You answered your own question, it makes the game work better so the rules got it right. Not sure about turn 90 and move though. Thats a bit too effective.

[marioslaz]

The only argument I can say in favour of rules is that with a counter march a BG makes a lot of movement to remain in place, while during a flank right, or left, likely men redeploy and so manoeuvre could be faster and also the advance could be part of the movement needed to redeploy.