C16th Scots

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nikgaukroger
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C16th Scots

Post by nikgaukroger »

Some comments from John Munro whom I hope will join this forum soon.
Scots artillery performance: Re Flodden the main reason for the poor performance seems to have been that the lighter english guns had a faster rate of fire and were more easiuly repositioned on the heavy ground. While the Scots heavier pieces were much slower and difficult to haul back after recoil. I have two different stories for gunner quality in that one source indicates that many of the better gunners were left with the fleet and the numbers were increased by untrained helpers while another contradicts this and suggests that all the gunners were professional. In conclusion the lists are right but the above might help in the introdcution notes.

Pikes: as previously staed I am happy with the conclusins drawn for the foot pre and post Flodden but Flodden, I think, needs attention. The stirling factory you mention as well as breastplates is described as also producing imitation Milanese plate for the nobles and their retainers although the richer guys would import their own. Many of the illustration sof the nobles are nothing less than full armour and then this supplemented by the pavise. As you state in your notes, the archers had little effect at Flodden. I found an interesting comment that the Scots pike formations had a hard core but a soft centre. This still leads me to a mixed formation with the front rank either heavily armoured (or fully armoured) witht the remaining ranks unprotected. this gives the nece result that as the front tranks die the rest becomes more and more vulnerable. Heavily armoured is proabaly the best balance as the main nobles would have been totally encased but I think their retainers would be less so. The result also fits nicely the definition of heavily armoured in the beta rules.

Border Horse: These were ceertainly well represented at Flodden with 5000 of them being roughed up in a skirmish during the crossing of the border. They are defined at this period as carrying a multitude of weapons including bows and crossbows as well as the inevitable lance.

At Flodden it is clear that the Scottish border horse dismounted under Home on the left wing where they were joined by Huntly's highlanders. Both Sadler in Border Fury and Niall Barr in his book on Flodden indicate the borderers as pike armed but the highlanders not.

In terms of the Borderer's definition, I think it is right with the exception that some form of missile weapon should be allowed in the earler period. I think this would also be essential for the type of Border warfare particualrly skirmishes they were involved in. I would suggest however that they should be allowed to dismount as pikes at flodden. As for other battles etc I think they would dismount during raiding but probably as some more loose form of foot.


Highlanders: As indicated above I can find no evidence of pike armed highlanders at Flodden or at any other time. It is interesting that James seemed to have used the highlanders on both flanks with Argyle and Lennox on the right while Gordon supported Homes' borderers on the left. Even at pinkie they seem to be separate from the main pike blocks.

Arquebus: Now the hard one. Before and during the Flodden campaign I agree no handguns in any numbers particulalrly as the French shipment arrived to late and was packed off following the battle for safekeeping. A lot of the evidence for the low number of handguns seems to come from the comments of Patten where at Pinkie he stated that "of hackbuttetters they had few or none." Interestingly Cooper in his work on Scottish Renaissance armies suggests that he mad ethis comment because it was unusual for them not to have them. Interestingly Patten also comments on a pre battle skirmish near Preston Pans where the Scot's harquebusiers played a key role. In the accounts of the battle the Scots horse tried to lure the English horse into an ambush which also involved 500 Scot's foot. The whole scheme unravelled when the English demi lancers caught the evading Scot's horse. (bad VMD roll there I feel). It would seem logica for these foot to be arquebus armed and this could explain why they were missing from the main battleline when the pike advanced.
There is little doubt that the Scots went to great length to increase the number of the troops with firearms. They required gentry to be armed with hagbuts at musters and ships were required to bring two pieces with them when bringing goods into the country. Lord dacre in 1522 warned that Albany hada thousand hagbusches as well as a great numbe rof handguns. Lyndsey of Pitscottie noted a vanguard odf Scots had 2000 spears, 500 bows and 500 gunners while the garrison of Dundee had 300 men of which the 200 infantry were to be half hagbutts.

At Ancrum moor the precipitate English cavalry charge was said to have been driven off by spears and musket fire.

In 1558 the English cavalry at eyemouth is said to have been broken by regular Scottish volleys.

At 1568 at Langside, the Scottish cavalry was described as each man having a musketeet mounted behind as a pillion. Brigades are described as being mixed pike and shot with highlanders interspersed. Also during Langside one attack was broken up by musketry when they advance dinto an enclosure.
Re the lists can I suggest that from1514 to say 1543 the numbers of arquebus be restricted a sper the list but then increased to 0 to 24. The date is a bit speculative but follows Pinkie and reflects a growing success in getting suitable numbers.

As an aside another interesting quote is that in 1548 the English garrison of Broughty ferry were chased back by a 1,000 mounted Scottish Harquebusiers. 0 to 6 bases ?

Finally, I an pretty sure that the skirmish border and highland archers are pretty much an anachronism and could be deleted. They are not mentioned in any battles although i could see thes ebeing dismounted borderes in a skirmish or raid situation. Interstingly I will have such a musket highland skirmish unit in the list for Killecrankie where Cameron of Lochiel formed a unit to occupy some farm cottage san dsnipe at the English battle line.
I think the highlanders have to have swordsmen capability. I see no deterioration in skill from Medieval times and indeed this should contimue through ECW and certainly 1689. I appreciate they are now warriors but in hand to hand in melee should have an edge on common and gardens musketeers who are no pike supported.
Nik Gaukroger

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Re: C16th Scots

Post by nikgaukroger »

nikgaukroger wrote:Some comments from John Munro whom I hope will join this forum soon.

Pikes: as previously staed I am happy with the conclusins drawn for the foot pre and post Flodden but Flodden, I think, needs attention. The stirling factory you mention as well as breastplates is described as also producing imitation Milanese plate for the nobles and their retainers although the richer guys would import their own. Many of the illustration sof the nobles are nothing less than full armour and then this supplemented by the pavise. As you state in your notes, the archers had little effect at Flodden. I found an interesting comment that the Scots pike formations had a hard core but a soft centre. This still leads me to a mixed formation with the front rank either heavily armoured (or fully armoured) witht the remaining ranks unprotected. this gives the nece result that as the front tranks die the rest becomes more and more vulnerable. Heavily armoured is proabaly the best balance as the main nobles would have been totally encased but I think their retainers would be less so. The result also fits nicely the definition of heavily armoured in the beta rules.

So far we have agreed that we will follow the FoG:AM approach on such formations and "average out" the armour on which basis this is a non-starter I'm afraid. FWIW as Bow gets the same - PoA against Armoured and Heavily Armoured in FoG:R it will not really affect the Flodden matchup.
Nik Gaukroger

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marshalney2000
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Post by marshalney2000 »

Hi guys, glad to be on this forum and look forward to an interesting debate on many issues.
If it has been agreed as a principle that we average out then I am certainly not going to rock the boat on this point. If anything it probably makes the formation a bit better than it would have been when casualties built up on the front rank. On the averaging principle then armoured is about right and as Nik says it does not make a lot of difference against bows and halberds who are their traditional opponent weapon types.
John
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Post by nikgaukroger »

Border Horse: These were ceertainly well represented at Flodden with 5000 of them being roughed up in a skirmish during the crossing of the border. They are defined at this period as carrying a multitude of weapons including bows and crossbows as well as the inevitable lance.

At Flodden it is clear that the Scottish border horse dismounted under Home on the left wing where they were joined by Huntly's highlanders. Both Sadler in Border Fury and Niall Barr in his book on Flodden indicate the borderers as pike armed but the highlanders not.
So would you suggest an All/0 exchange of the border horse for (presumably) Unarmoured pikemen in 1513 - I say All/0 as even the 1513 options aren't just Flodden.

Happy to remove the pikemen option for the highlanders - it was very speculative to be honest.

In terms of the Borderer's definition, I think it is right with the exception that some form of missile weapon should be allowed in the earler period. I think this would also be essential for the type of Border warfare particualrly skirmishes they were involved in. I would suggest however that they should be allowed to dismount as pikes at flodden. As for other battles etc I think they would dismount during raiding but probably as some more loose form of foot.
Would they have put out enough shooting to justify a missile capability? If so would crossbow be suitable as a not too effective "average" of their missile weapons? Would their counterparts in the English army be the same?
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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Post by nikgaukroger »

Finally, I an pretty sure that the skirmish border and highland archers are pretty much an anachronism and could be deleted. They are not mentioned in any battles although i could see thes ebeing dismounted borderes in a skirmish or raid situation. Interstingly I will have such a musket highland skirmish unit in the list for Killecrankie where Cameron of Lochiel formed a unit to occupy some farm cottage san dsnipe at the English battle line.
I will remove.

However, just as an aside I'd like to be a bit less "hardline" on some of the speculative stuff in the FoG:R lists than we were in the FoG:Am ones as I think we might, with hindsight, have been too tough in them. Of course such items must not be unbalancing :)
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by nikgaukroger »

Re the lists can I suggest that from1514 to say 1543 the numbers of arquebus be restricted a sper the list but then increased to 0 to 24. The date is a bit speculative but follows Pinkie and reflects a growing success in getting suitable numbers.

I'll increase the numbers after 1543. However, 24 feels a bit much so for the time being I'll go to 18 and think about it - just have to be careful that the "feel" of the army, i.e. massed pikemen, isn't diluted by too many "optional" types IMO.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by nikgaukroger »

I think the highlanders have to have swordsmen capability. I see no deterioration in skill from Medieval times and indeed this should contimue through ECW and certainly 1689. I appreciate they are now warriors but in hand to hand in melee should have an edge on common and gardens musketeers who are no pike supported.
Indeed they should have - will add.
Nik Gaukroger

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If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

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marshalney2000
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Post by marshalney2000 »

Nik, happy with all the changes made and agree 18 for the missile foot is ok rather than 24 as we certainly must keep the pike heavy feel of the army.
With regard to border horse at Flodden I agree an all or nothing dismount option and think we should restrict it to that day of battle as they were certainly mounted before and during the retreat.
Turning to missile weapons for border horse, even early accounts have them with some form of missile weapons with everything from longbows down. I picked on crossbows because the small latch xbow is often mentioned and seemed a natural precursor to the pistol of later times. I am also trying to think ahead to the idea of a reiver army you mentioned to me for Solway moss and also the nature of border reiving itself where sittng on a horse with merely a lance as weaponry is not a lot of use in attacking a village or a fortified tower. In this type of border fight they would dismount obviously not as pikemen but some form of missile armed swordsmen. I am not sure whether this small action is outside the scope of the team's thoughts. If we want a representation then they might dismount as something like warriors average unprotected bow/xbow swordsmen.
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Post by marshalney2000 »

Oops forgot to mention that following 1550 firearms were becoming more common amongst highlanders. One option to reflect this would be to allow after 1550 something like 0 to 4 highlanders with musket* while the rest would continue as bows.
John
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Post by nikgaukroger »

marshalney2000 wrote:Oops forgot to mention that following 1550 firearms were becoming more common amongst highlanders. One option to reflect this would be to allow after 1550 something like 0 to 4 highlanders with musket* while the rest would continue as bows.
John
In the absence of Arquebus*, which I suspect is what they really would be, I'd be tempted to say there aren't enough to warrant a firearms capability and leave them as Bow* but note that some would in fact be using firearms.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by nikgaukroger »

BTW as we currently have Landskecht, etc. pikemen in BGs up to 16 strong I suspect that the Scots should be likewise - unless you have any objection to that.
Nik Gaukroger

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marshalney2000
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Post by marshalney2000 »

Well as the Flodden Scots were trained by French captains in Swiss and German pike tactics it would seem sensible that the size of the units would also be copied so 16 seems good to me. It also has the right look of a large pike body steamrolling its way over the table without being too manouverable. Good for Pinkie as well from descriptions of the pike formation used there. Could be more questionable in the Mary Queen of Scots era where a greater integration and coordination with gunpowder armed shot appears evident from contemporary descriptions.
Happy to leave the Highlanders after 1550 as bow* as all I was doing was pointing out the position re firearms. If firearms were slow to grow in numbers in the scot's lowlands the time for adoption would have been extended even more in the highlands. Probably in the main being retricted to the chief and his close relatives who had a bob or two to buy the weapons.
I hope to post something on the Covenanting infantry numbers and quality in different theatres and time frames later tonight unless I get hooked on the champions league.
John
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