Bursting through friends

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:04 pm

I enemy BG 4 MU away.

2 BG Cav fail test not to charge so charge both in a battle line 2 by 2 bases.

Through VM for both BG moved the furtherest first they have to wheel left to get to the LH , now moving the second BG do they have have to burst through their friends who are now in front of them, I could have dropped a base to miss them but was told you could'nt do that because they failed a test to not charge.

I know it would be easier with diagram but not that IT savey.

Any help welome.

Robert241167 · Post by **Robert241167** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:06 pm

Hi Dave

I thought you could drop a base to avoid friends in a charge and assume this is regardless of whether you fail a test to charge.

Rob

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:52 pm

Robert241167 wrote:Hi Dave

I thought you could drop a base to avoid friends in a charge and assume this is regardless of whether you fail a test to charge.

Rob

I thought you could as well but the umpire called against me.

jonphilp · Post by **jonphilp** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:32 pm

Hi David,

I believe you are correct, you could have dropped a base. If I remember correctly Shock troops also do not test /charge if they will contact friends who are shock troops so the second unit would have aborted the charge.

Jon

JanChris · Post by **JanChris** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:38 pm

jonphilp wrote:Hi David,

I believe you are correct, you could have dropped a base. If I remember correctly Shock troops also do not test /charge if they will contact friends who are shock troops so the second unit would have aborted the charge.

Jon

Correct, p58: "the following rules apply if they could not contact the enemy without passing through friends, even by ... dropping back bases"
and "they do not test ... if the friends are shock troops"

Jan-Chris

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:34 pm

Through VM for both BG moved the furtherest first they have to wheel left to get to the LH , now moving the second BG do they have have to burst through their friends who are now in front of them, I could have dropped a base to miss them but was told you could'nt do that because they failed a test to not charge

I stand to be wrong.....

But I thought you only had to move the faster BG in a pursuit? This is a charge - so it's your call?

I hesitate to ask who the umpire was in case it was someone I don't wish to offend.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:42 pm

Have now checked. Page 68 - the active player chooses the order of charges.

Would that have helped?

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:01 pm

petedalby wrote:
Through VM for both BG moved the furtherest first they have to wheel left to get to the LH , now moving the second BG do they have have to burst through their friends who are now in front of them, I could have dropped a base to miss them but was told you could'nt do that because they failed a test to not charge
I stand to be wrong.....

But I thought you only had to move the faster BG in a pursuit? This is a charge - so it's your call?

I hesitate to ask who the umpire was in case it was someone I don't wish to offend.

I'd better not say who the umpire was but I did have a Victor meldrew momment 'I do'nt belive it' when i was told it would have been different if I had'nt failed a test to charge? and therefore they burst through there friends.
I carried on after much discussion and at least I was able to raise the disrupted Lancers without much worries, could have been different mind you.
Dave

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:07 pm

petedalby wrote:Have now checked. Page 68 - the active player chooses the order of charges.

Would that have helped?

it might have if i had'nt got the idea that I moved the BG that threw the highest first. I think thats me mixing up evades moving the furtherest first is that right.

Still it was the only problum all weekend, and after ten minutes i got over my grump I did say sorry to my opponent afterwards for getting in a grump.

To be honest it was a good game and a good weekend so I'll just have to me more aware of the rules.

Dave

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:44 pm

david53 wrote: I'd better not say who the umpire was

We'll assume it was Hammy then

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:54 am

I think thats me mixing up evades moving the furtherest first is that right.

I don't believe so - no. AFAIK it is only pursuers where you must move the fastest first once all VMDs are known.

Live and learn.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:29 pm

Actually, I don't think the situation has been described adequately.

The situation was that both units failed their test to charge, but when the charge was made each unit got in each other's way. There was no space to drop bases back as they still would have burst through.

When we checked the rules on Monday night (I wasn't the umpire) after Dave had been complaining then we couldn't find anything to stop the second unit bursting through the first.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:18 pm

dave_r wrote:Actually, I don't think the situation has been described adequately.

The situation was that both units failed their test to charge, but when the charge was made each unit got in each other's way. There was no space to drop bases back as they still would have burst through.

When we checked the rules on Monday night (I wasn't the umpire) after Dave had been complaining then we couldn't find anything to stop the second unit bursting through the first.

Complaining like I do.

I may have given the wrong impression at the club that there was'nt room to get through there would have been if allowed to drop a base.

But lets get it right there was room to drop one base to get past the friendly BG and the Steep Hill but I was told that I could'nt do that as it says in the rules page 54
the only change in formation that is allowed during a charge is to contract the battle groups frontage by one base if necessary

I was told that as it was'nt necessary therefore I could'nt and was ruled that they burst through my Lancers.

What the thing boils down to.

In a charge you can drop a base to miss friends in a pursuit can you also drop a base to avoid friends,

I thought you could it was ruled against me.

I accepted it and moved on but I still think after reading the rules again I was right.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:20 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
david53 wrote: I'd better not say who the umpire was
We'll assume it was Hammy then

Sorry Nik no it was'nt Hammy.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:28 pm

david53 wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
david53 wrote: I'd better not say who the umpire was
We'll assume it was Hammy then

Sorry Nik no it was'nt Hammy.

I obly got called to one umpiring issue when the umpire was rather stuck. It was one of Dave's games but I am pretty sure I rulled correctly in that case.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:18 pm

hammy wrote:
david53 wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote: We'll assume it was Hammy then

Sorry Nik no it was'nt Hammy.
I obly got called to one umpiring issue when the umpire was rather stuck. It was one of Dave's games but I am pretty sure I rulled correctly in that case.

You did, for the second event I could'nt ask someone elese as the umpire had ruled already

Dave.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:42 pm

Without seeing the situation it is difficult to give an accurate view....

But shock troops don't burst through other shock troops?

So surely they could drop a base as it is necessary?

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:31 pm

That was the problem - we couldn't find anywhere that said Shock troops don't burst through shock troops!

If you could provide a page reference we would be eternally grateful.

jonphilp · Post by **jonphilp** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:02 pm

Hi ,

Page 58 "They will not test (and wil not charge) if the friends are shock troops or already in melee.

Jon

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:15 pm

Never mind the umpire, I was the opponent in this game. I saw it like this, Two shock BG's failed their test not to charge. The first to move didn't have to cross the path of the other. It did so to avoid some elephants that would have been in position to flank charge. However, nothing wrong with that. I could not see any reason that they could not wheel. It would not have reduced the number of bases that would come to contact.

This left a situation with the second BG's charge. It was two bases wide, one base had the other chargers ahead, having swerved across its front, the other base had some light horse ahead of it. The charge was obliged to be straight ahead after the evaders, who were directly in front.

To take the rules one at a time:

The test not to charge had been made when there were no friendly shock troops in the way. Some obstructing friendly shock troops applies only to prevent the test. This rule is not relevant here, the situation is post-test. (p 58 )

Also page 58, the chargers must burst through the friends in the way. (Note 'must', not 'may').

Page 54, dropping back bases to avoid friends is permitted if necessary. It is in bold in the rules too.
The chargers 'must' burst through friends. I contend it was therefore not 'necessary' to drop any bases back because they can burst through. 'Necessary' would imply the charge move could not be made unless the base was dropped back. Clearly this does not apply.

The net result, which the umpire ruled, is that the charge went ahead bursting through both friendly units blocking its way.
Simple.