Changing Bow and MF formation in same BG

PLloyd · Post by **PLloyd** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:10 pm

Hi,

I want to approach an enemy BG with a mixed (3 rank/4 file) BG of Bow and MF, with the Bow in the first rank to be able to shoot once my BG is stationary:

MF MF Bow
MF MF Bow
MF MF Bow --> ENEMY BG
MF MF Bow

If the enemy BG looks like moving into position to charge, then I want to re-order the formation to put the Bow in the third rank to assist with support shooting in the impact phase:

Bow MF MF
Bow MF MF
Bow MF MF --> Enemy BG
Bow MF MF

As this appears to have been a historically accurate tactic for drilled troops, I presume it is legal in FOG to swop the positions while the BG is stationary? Also does the re-ordering of ranks take place in the Movement phase?

Thanks

Peter

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:26 pm

Sorry that won't work. One thing to note is that your bows in the second rank fire at the same effect as in the first. One thing I think you could try is intiially forming in two ranks with the bows in the second rank, and then contract to a three rank formation when the enemy approaches, e.g.

Code: Select all

MF MF
Bw MF
Bw MF
Bw MF
Bw MF
MF MF

to 

Bw MF MF
Bw MF MF
Bw MF MF
Bw MF MF

Works better with drilled troops, obviously and would need to be done before the enemy is within 2 MU so you are not in the enemy restricted zone.

Chris

jonphilp · Post by **jonphilp** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:33 pm

hi Peter,

In mixed battlegroups the firing range is taken from the front rank , rear ranks fire at the same range "even if the front rank cannot shoot" (page 81 rules). you do not need to make a change in the order of the battlegroup to allow this to happen.

Jon

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:55 pm

The key is that for missile armed troops it is the first shooting rank that matters. If the front rank is spearmen and the second rank archers then the archers are the 'first shooting rank' so fire at full effect.

If your archers are light foot I wouldn't worry about their shooting. Normally you will not generate enough shooting dice to make it worth the effort.

mohawk · Post by **mohawk** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:39 am

hammy wrote:The key is that for missile armed troops it is the first shooting rank that matters. If the front rank is spearmen and the second rank archers then the archers are the 'first shooting rank' so fire at full effect.

I'm new to this and would also just like to clarify that it would be the same for Xbow armed troops? EG: Late Crusader mixed formation of Spear/Xbow with Xbow as rear rank.

Cheers,

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:27 am

mohawk wrote:
hammy wrote:The key is that for missile armed troops it is the first shooting rank that matters. If the front rank is spearmen and the second rank archers then the archers are the 'first shooting rank' so fire at full effect.
I'm new to this and would also just like to clarify that it would be the same for Xbow armed troops? EG: Late Crusader mixed formation of Spear/Xbow with Xbow as rear rank.

Cheers,

Yes.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:08 am

jonphilp wrote:In mixed battlegroups the firing range is taken from the front rank , rear ranks fire at the same range "even if the front rank cannot shoot" (page 81 rules). you do not need to make a change in the order of the battlegroup to allow this to happen.

Actually it is 'rear rank bases' (not ranks). Adding page 91 IMO it means only shooters in the 2nd rank can shoot if the front rank has no shooting capability. Shooters in the 3rd rank can only shoot during the impact phase (if at all).
So if the BG in the example had their shooters in the 2nd rank they could shoot (and would do so as if they were the front rank), but if they are in the 3rd rank they can't shoot during the shooting phase.

PLloyd · Post by **PLloyd** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:13 pm

Thanks to all for the replies and the clarification.

Can I ask a general question, do the rules not permit a re-ordering of the ranks of a BG, except through contractions/expansions, once they are formed at the beginning of the game?

Peter

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:34 pm

They do, but only when you contract or expand. There is no way to change bases around when stationary.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:55 pm

PLloyd wrote:Can I ask a general question, do the rules not permit a re-ordering of the ranks of a BG, except through contractions/expansions, once they are formed at the beginning of the game?

Basically no, the only way to 'exchange ranks' is via expandsions and contractions.

GHGAustin · Post by **GHGAustin** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:33 pm

So be aware of this if you have to turn 180 degrees with a mixed BG!

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:42 am

Ghaznavid wrote:
PLloyd wrote:Can I ask a general question, do the rules not permit a re-ordering of the ranks of a BG, except through contractions/expansions, once they are formed at the beginning of the game?
Basically no, the only way to 'exchange ranks' is via expansions and contractions.

We wanted to minimise fiddling about with formations.

Moreover, the LF in mixed formations do not represent as many men as LF in LF only BGs. (Typically there might be only 1 or 2 ranks of them in a Spear and LF Bow formation). Therefore the effect they get as a 3rd rank is all the effect that we feel can be historically justified. Their exact (historical) position in the BG is irrelevant to this, the overall historical effect is abstracted into the current 3rd rank effect.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:43 am

GHGAustin wrote:So be aware of this if you have to turn 180 degrees with a mixed BG!

Er no. The 180 turn rules state that the old front rank becomes the new front rank.