(Experimental archaeology) Hoplite charges, routs and pursuits

[Athos1660]

A very interesting video about the Hoplites vs Hoplites charges and especially routs.
Serious work.
In French but with very good subtitles in English as far as I could tell :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VerlSW1iPJ8

[Ray552]

Thanks for posting the video link - very interesting. I liked the first person POV footage, and the overhead drone video of the phalanxes (200 people in each one) was pretty cool.

The English subtitles were accurate and I had no difficulty understanding the narration.

Of course, as the narrator states, no one in the experiment is in fear of actually getting killed or seriously wounded (maybe bumps or scratches at most), but it's the closest thing we can get for now.

As he says, "we can't import any actual Greek hoplites from 500 BC to fight it out for real"

[Athos1660]

For those interested and who wouldn't have noticed, there's a bibliography on the matter, when you click on 'more' below the video.

Not being an heavy reader about warfare, what surprised me the most is the premise of this experiment being that phalanx breaks before or at impact (that is charges without lasting melees) would represent 73% of the battles described in our sources. This link between charges and Greek hoplites is interesting.

[Ray552]

...Not being an heavy reader about warfare, what surprised me the most is the premise of this experiment being that phalanx breaks before or at impact (that is charges without lasting melees) would represent 73% of the battles described in our sources. This link between charges and Greek hoplites is interesting.

Perhaps many of these battles where one side (possibly both?) could be classified as "Raw" (using the FOG2 quality grades) - weren't the majority of hoplites part-timers who drilled only every so often?

As I understand it, the Spartans were full-time soldiers, training constantly since childhood, which would account for their reputation. On a smaller scale, same with the Theban Sacred Band.

[Athos1660]

I am afraid the whys of 73% are a matter of hypothesis.

If I get what you mean, melees were the normal/ultimate way of fighting for a hoplite phalanx but, in 73 % of the cases, one side collapsed before it because of its part-timers who refused it and run away before the impact. Because of inexperience ? Cowardness ? Etc.

Maybe the roughness of the ppl of this time and their motivation to defend their home town shouldn’t be underestimated, at least during the 5th century BC. Who won at Marathon ? Part-timers, outnumbered say two to one. And charging at a run…

My 2c hypothesis is that, through the ages, some ‘fighter types’ may have had the tools/spirit/training/limitations/ skills/etc. to mainly charge, others to melee, others to shoot.

(Another hypothesis is that the sources or their translation or their interpretation maybe be biaised.)

[Ray552]

It's possible that the sources could be biased or mistranslated, or that perhaps the sources more often mentioned the unusual circumstances like a phalanx breaking just before or at contact.

Maybe they liked to write about it more in a satirical manner?

Archilochus (ca. 680-645 BCE) was a poet and mercenary from the island of Paros. One of his more well-known poems has been translated in several ways (take your pick):

That good shield I threw away
Beside a bush is making some Thracian proud.
To hell with both of them.
I’m here and I’ll get me a better one.
-Translated by Barrios Mills

I don’t give a damn if some Thracian ape strut
Proud of that first-rate shield the bushes got.
Leaving it was hell, but in a tricky spot
I kept my hide intact. Good shields can be bought.
-Translated by Guy Davenport

Well, what if some barbaric Thracian glories
In the perfect shield I left under a bush?
I was sorry to leave it – but I saved my skin.
Does it matter? Oh hell, I’ll buy a better one.
-Translated by Willis Barnstone

[Athos1660]

Hypotheses are sweet as candies but of little value without the beginning of some evidence ; in this case, we don't know which translation was used...

Besides, this experiment is based on the research of a Doctorate in Greek History, an indication of diligence (and of his ability to translate Ancient Greek).

PS : Thx for this poetic moment !