Routing in Impact phase

[batesmotel]

It sounds to me that the way to make sense of this in the sequence of play is to assume that the VMD for charge distance when all possible charge targets have evaded is made immediately during the "make evade moves" phase once that condition is satisfied. The sequence of play doesn't specify when the VMD is actually rolled,only that the extra distance is applied during "make charge moves". This wold seem to handle evades as the authors intended and seems consistent with the full turn sequence as written.

Chris

[spikemesq]

batesmotel: It sounds to me that the way to make sense of this in the sequence of play is to assume that the VMD for charge distance when all possible charge targets have evaded is made immediately during the "make evade moves" phase once that condition is satisfied. The sequence of play doesn't specify when the VMD is actually rolled,only that the extra distance is applied during "make charge moves". This wold seem to handle evades as the authors intended and seems consistent with the full turn sequence as written.

But this is circular. The VMD is available only if all charge targets have evaded and that specifically occurs during the charge move segment. (see pg. 68).

Charge targets are enemy BGs that can be legally contacted within the charger's normal move distance unless obstructed by enemy/friends/terrain. (See pg. 52. Emphasis added).

Thus, enemy BGs that cannot be legally contacted within the charger's normal move distance are not charge targets and cannot evade (but can intercept).

The circular problem emerges when you add evades to BGs that are not valid targets but for a VMD. Under your rule, they become targets after the charger rolls a VMD. That VMD is available only if all targets have evaded. Thus, they cannot evade if all evades have occurred.

Consider single-rank Cv beyond the normal move distance but within +2 MU. If all other targets evade, the chargers roll VMD and now can reach the Cv. If the Cv, now a target under your rule, elect not to evade, does the charging BG lose its VMD? As not all targets have evaded, it should not be able to roll VMD.

Spike

[spikemesq]

I do not see this bit in the section on Impact Phase or on pursuits

Page 108. "Non-shock cavalry, camelry or light chariots entirely 1 base deep or skirmishers that would be contacted by enemy pursuers in any phase can evade (unless they are already in close combat other than only as an overlap"

Evade moves - pg 64

"Non-shock cavalry, camelry or light chariots entirely 1 base deep or skirmishers can choose to evade an enemy battle group's charge unless they are already in close combat other than only as an overlap"

Charging - pg 53

"A charging battle group must make a charge move in one of two ways:

1. Advance directly ahead, up to the full extent of its charge move (plus any variable move distance to contact evaders) to "legally" contact any part of hte target battle group(s)"

This is further re-inforced by pg 58:

"if the enemy who would be charged are capable of evading - see later - assume a charge move distance of 2MU's more than the shock troops' normal move distance. This is the maximum variable move distance that could be added"

Therefore:

- You would only make this roll if all BG's initially evade out of normal move distance
- Once this roll is made it adds to the charge move
- i.e. the VMD is part of the charge move
- Any target can thus evade

In addition to the circular problem noted above, the rules cited don't quite work.

Chargers are not pursuers, so a special rule for evades on pg. 108 offers little guidance.

That the ability to evade is consistent in both charge scenarios and pursuit routing scenarios is not remarkable either. Indeed, if the pursuit rules extended to charge rules, then the RAW would not need to state that twice.

The extension you note on pg. 58 comes up only as an exception to forced charging for impetuous shock troops. It does not extend the reach of charge targets (i.e., those able to evade). Instead, it allows you to contemplate the charger's extra move to avoid terrain, elephants, etc. In fact, when this rule does apply, any evade-capable troops will NOT evade, because the extra distance is only relevant to cancel a charge. Thus, the only rule that extends a charger's potential move before executing its actual move does not open up additional evades.

On the flip side, one rule you cite actually muddies this matter further.

Rules: 1. Advance directly ahead, up to the full extent of its charge move (plus any variable move distance to contact evaders) to "legally" contact any part of the target battle group(s)"

This suggests that a charger's VMD move only applies if it would permit the chargers to contact the evading BG. If the extra MU do not close the gap, does this rule limit the charge to normal move distance?

Spike

Places to charge, people to see.

[philqw78]

an enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be legally contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge.

It has nothing to do with pursuit. If a BG can be legally contacted by a charge it counts as being charged and can react.

[philqw78]

Oh, and where we started, the sequence of the impact phase,

The impact phase is divided into four stages:
*Declaring charges (in addition....without orders...)
*Responding....intercept....evades
*Moving chargers into contact
*Resolve combats

P52 Top.

[spikemesq]

an enemy battle group in the path pf a charge counts as being charged if it can be legally contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge.


It has nothing to do with pursuit. If a BG can be legally contacted by a charge it counts as being charged and can react.

At declaration only enemy BGs in the path of a charge and within the charging unit's normal move are targets of a charge.

The VMD is rolled when the charge is carried out, after all declarations and after all intercepts and evades, and then only if (and therefore after) all charge targets have evaded. pg. 68.

So an enemy beyond the charging unit's normal move is not a charge target. Even if it is somehow "in the path" of the charge, it can only be contacted after the VMD which happens after all targets have evaded.

If the outlier BG can evade the chargers because the VMD allows the charge to contact them, what if they choose not to do so? Now all targets have not evaded, so the charging unit should not roll a VMD. But it already rolled a VMD.

That way lies madness.

Spike

[philqw78]

That way lies madness.

Spike

Why? Is it not madder that a BG of HF that rolls a 5 can now contact LH who get no chance to evade.

I'm sure I only paid for a five minute argument.

[spikemesq]

That way lies madness.

Spike

Why? Is it not madder that a BG of HF that rolls a 5 can now contact LH who get no chance to evade.

I'm sure I only paid for a five minute argument.

If that LH was close enough to be snagged but not close enough to react, why not?

It makes sense, after all, that skirmishers believing themselves to be a safe distance away from chargers would not react in time. Indeed, by the time they realize that they are in danger, it is too late to escape.

It is no less fair than LH whose evade fails to escape a charge. At least the outlier LH does not get caught in the rear.

Plus, why should LH always be guaranteed a chance to escape from enemy? They should be comfortable (and therefore content) to linger 5 MU from enemy HF. On those occasions when that comfort is misplaced because of an explosive charge by the HF, why give the LH an extended lease on life and permit them to evade with zero chance of being caught. That chargers lucky enough to grab some extra move might benefit from it against outlier skirmishers is OK by me. Better yet, it is consistent with the rules.

Spike

[hammy]

Plus, why should LH always be guaranteed a chance to escape from enemy? They should be comfortable (and therefore content) to linger 5 MU from enemy HF. On those occasions when that comfort is misplaced because of an explosive charge by the HF, why give the LH an extended lease on life and permit them to evade with zero chance of being caught. That chargers lucky enough to grab some extra move might benefit from it against outlier skirmishers is OK by me. Better yet, it is consistent with the rules.

Err, skirmishers aren't guaranteed to be able to get away, that is what VMDs are all about.

What you are suggesting is plain silly. Imagine the light horse standing there going "oh look there are some heavy foot running towards us but they are quite a long way away so we are safe to stand here. Hang on they are getting a bit close, well they were too far away to start with so we will still do nothing. Oh, they are getting really near now but who cares. Eeeek were dead "

It seems that everyone other than you doesn't have any issues with this part of the rules but at present there are two threads where you seem to be inventing some incredible interpretations that just aren't there.

[philqw78]

If that LH was close enough to be snagged but not close enough to react, why not?

Because LH at 3 MU cannot be caught

It makes sense, after all, that skirmishers believing themselves to be a safe distance away from chargers would not react in time. Indeed, by the time they realize that they are in danger, it is too late to escape.

It makes no sense at all

It is no less fair than LH whose evade fails to escape a charge. At least the outlier LH does not get caught in the rear.

but LH within 3 MU cannot fail to escape.

Plus, why should LH always be guaranteed a chance to escape from enemy? They should be comfortable (and therefore content) to linger 5 MU from enemy HF. On those occasions when that comfort is misplaced because of an explosive charge by the HF, why give the LH an extended lease on life and permit them to evade with zero chance of being caught. That chargers lucky enough to grab some extra move might benefit from it against outlier skirmishers is OK by me. Better yet, it is consistent with the rules.

consistent with whose rules? Einsteins or Schrodingers? If a BG broke and the pursuit, however long, carried the pursuers into another BG capable of evading they would have a chance to evade. This makes a charge target being able to evade if contacted due to VMD consistent.

[Dareun]

That way lies madness.

Spike

madness?

This is SPARTA!!!!

ok I

[philqw78]

What you are suggesting is plain silly. Imagine the light horse standing there going "oh look there are some heavy foot running towards us but they are quite a long way away so we are safe to stand here. Hang on they are getting a bit close, well they were too far away to start with so we will still do nothing. Oh, they are getting really near now but who cares. Eeeek were dead "
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIqlcaaz ... L&index=17
At exactly 6min and 52 seconds of this authentic medieval video you can see just how this is achieved

[hammy]

It is no less fair than LH whose evade fails to escape a charge. At least the outlier LH does not get caught in the rear.

but LH within 3 MU cannot fail to escape.

Actually they can but it would need the LH to have to wheel through a large angle or to have their evade path blocked.

[spikemesq]

Hammy: What you are suggesting is plain silly. Imagine the light horse standing there going "oh look there are some heavy foot running towards us but they are quite a long way away so we are safe to stand here. Hang on they are getting a bit close, well they were too far away to start with so we will still do nothing. Oh, they are getting really near now but who cares. Eeeek were dead Sad"

If LH beyond charge reach (but within potential VMD range) have the situational awareness to react at the proverbial last minute, why do they evade if the VMD comes up short?

Look those Lancers are charging, time to bugger off. Oh wait, they aren't going to make it. Too late, we're out of here.

Moreover, if the outliers are single-rank Cv, they could have a chance to intercept. If they choose not (or fail) to do so, do they get a second reaction when the VMD puts them into the path? Are they now targets of the charge (who could not intercept)? Can they now evade?

Does the VMD provide additional intercept opportunities for other BGs whose ZOI does not extend into the full move charge but does extend into the extra portion?

Everything else in the rules indicates a reaction window that ends once the chargers move. This should be no different.

Spike

[hammy]

Hammy: What you are suggesting is plain silly. Imagine the light horse standing there going "oh look there are some heavy foot running towards us but they are quite a long way away so we are safe to stand here. Hang on they are getting a bit close, well they were too far away to start with so we will still do nothing. Oh, they are getting really near now but who cares. Eeeek were dead Sad"

If LH beyond charge reach (but within potential VMD range) have the situational awareness to react at the proverbial last minute, why do they evade if the VMD comes up short?

They don't

Moreover, if the outliers are single-rank Cv, they could have a chance to intercept. If they choose not (or fail) to do so, do they get a second reaction when the VMD puts them into the path? Are they now targets of the charge (who could not intercept)? Can they now evade?

The outliers can only intercept if the path of the charge before any evadescrosses their ZoI

Does the VMD provide additional intercept opportunities for other BGs whose ZOI does not extend into the full move charge but does extend into the extra portion?

No.

Everything else in the rules indicates a reaction window that ends once the chargers move. This should be no different.

Really? So if there is a BG of fragmented troops that is revealed by an evade does it not test for being charged?
P66 top of. "When troops who can evade are charged, their player must decide whether or not they will evade. If they are to evade the charger then uses a measuring stick or tape to indicate the direction of the charge"

Are you saying that troops caught by a long VMD are not actually chrged so the "must decide whether or not" clause does not come into play?

[spikemesq]

Moreover, if the outliers are single-rank Cv, they could have a chance to intercept. If they choose not (or fail) to do so, do they get a second reaction when the VMD puts them into the path? Are they now targets of the charge (who could not intercept)? Can they now evade?

The outliers can only intercept if the path of the charge before any evadescrosses their ZoI

Right, so a BG of single rank Cv at 6MU and (thus beyond charge reach) with a BG of LH at 5MU (thus within charge reach) could intercept if the LH are not intervening because the Lancers would enter the ZOI whether or not the LH evade. This is not that unusual.

If they do not/cannot intercept and the VMD result puts them in reach, can they now evade?

Does the VMD provide additional intercept opportunities for other BGs whose ZOI does not extend into the full move charge but does extend into the extra portion?

No.

Why not? Your extension of charge targets allows conditional evades to troops that are not targets until the VMD makes them so. Why should that not apply to interceptions as well?

Everything else in the rules indicates a reaction window that ends once the chargers move. This should be no different.

Really? So if there is a BG of fragmented troops that is revealed by an evade does it not test for being charged?
P66 top of. "When troops who can evade are charged, their player must decide whether or not they will evade. If they are to evade the charger then uses a measuring stick or tape to indicate the direction of the charge"

Any troops within normal move and revealed/exposed when other friendly troops evade are absolutely charge targets. They can evade, etc. because the rules say that they are targets of the charge. See pg. 52. If they are fragmented, they must test solely for being a target of the charge. See pg. 61.

But this happens within the reaction segment and before any VMD is rolled. Indeed, if the evaders reveal a new target that does not/cannot evade, then the charger does not roll a VMD because not all of its targets have evaded.

Are you saying that troops caught by a long VMD are not actually chrged so the "must decide whether or not" clause does not come into play?

I am saying that troops caught by a long VMD are not eligible to evade because they are not targets of the charge. They are not relevant to the impact unless and until all charge reactions are effected.

"Prior to moving chargers, there are three possible responses by the enemy: receiving the charge, interception charges and evade moves." Pg. 61. (emphasis added)

So evades must happen before the chargers move.

"The chargers now move their charge move, adjusting the move distance by a VMD roll if all their charge targets evaded. Pg. 68 (emphasis added)

So the outlier cannot evade prior to the charge move because it is not within normal move distance.

It cannot evade after the VMD roll puts it in reach because (a) evades must happen prior to charge moves and charge move is when the VMD roll occurs; and (b) even if the VMD is on the cusp of move/response, it can only occur if all targets evade and the outlier is not a target.

If the outlier does get an evade out-of-sequence, why shouldn't the extra charge reach also trigger potential intercepts?

Spike

[spikeathome]

As a follow up on this outlier question, what happens to Fragmented outliers?

Again, no charge is declared on them and they are not revealed by evaders, so none of the triggers stated in the rules are plucked. If the VMD will take the the chargers into them, do they test? I believe that they do not because they are not a charge target, etc. But I am sure Hammy had another footnote to the Impact Phase sequence.

Spike

Hammy's very best pal.

[hazelbark]

As a follow up on this outlier question, what happens to Fragmented outliers?

Again, no charge is declared on them and they are not revealed by evaders, so none of the triggers stated in the rules are plucked. If the VMD will take the the chargers into them, do they test? I believe that they do not because they are not a charge target, etc. But I am sure Hammy had another footnote to the Impact Phase sequence.
.

Read page 108 right column second bullet.

Pretty darn clear. Contacted = treat as charge. So your summary here is off.

[spikeathome]

As a follow up on this outlier question, what happens to Fragmented outliers?

Again, no charge is declared on them and they are not revealed by evaders, so none of the triggers stated in the rules are plucked. If the VMD will take the the chargers into them, do they test? I believe that they do not because they are not a charge target, etc. But I am sure Hammy had another footnote to the Impact Phase sequence.
.

Read page 108 right column second bullet.

Pretty darn clear. Contacted = treat as charge. So your summary here is off.

Awesome. Even without the rules at hand (left them at the office), I know that is about 50 pages past from the impact phase rules. So folding them into the charge rules is clear as mud.

In fact, from earlier posts, I see that is from the routs/pursuits rules. So charges that exceed normal move are now pursuits?


Spike

[philqw78]

an enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be legally contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge.

At declaration only enemy BGs in the path of a charge and within the charging unit's normal move are targets of a charge.

Yes

The VMD is rolled when the charge is carried out, after all declarations and after all intercepts and evades, and then only if (and therefore after) all charge targets have evaded. pg. 68.

So an enemy beyond the charging unit's normal move is not a charge target. Even if it is somehow "in the path" of the charge, it can only be contacted after the VMD which happens after all targets have evaded.

It is, the rules say so. Do you need to read the first paragraph again

If the outlier BG can evade the chargers because the VMD allows the charge to contact them, what if they choose not to do so? Now all targets have not evaded, so the charging unit should not roll a VMD. But it already rolled a VMD.

The same can be said if battle troops are contacted due to extra move due to VMD. If I roll up 2MU and strike a BG of HF all targets have not evaded, so in your logic the VMD cannot be rolled so the charge never happened.

That way lies madness