Alternative LoS (instead of base game's 20)?

[kronenblatt]

I've been thinking some time about the line-of-sight range. Base game's is 20, which to me is too long.

What would be a challenging yet enjoyable range for MP games? I'm thinking 10 or maybe 7, which could make a true difference to MP and add more nerve. 5 may be too low, but is worthwhile considering.

Thoughts and ideas?

[Karvon]

Yeah, I'd prefer a shorter LOS; wish it was an option in game settings actually. I think you might consider setting it to max range of heavy artillery.

Karvon

[kronenblatt]

Yeah, I'd prefer a shorter LOS; wish it was an option in game settings actually. I think you might consider setting it to max range of heavy artillery.

Karvon

That's 9, right? For half effect or something, and 6 range for full effect?

[Karvon]

Correct.

[Athos1660]

One square is 60 x 60 paces, so, unless I am mistaken, being able to see men 20 squares away is not unrealistic which of course doesn't mean you can't chose any other LOS you’d find more interesting|challenging

[kronenblatt]

One square is 60 x 60 paces, so, unless I am mistaken, being able to see men 20 squares away is not unrealistic which of course doesn't mean you can't chose any other LOS you’d find more interesting|challenging

Yup, it’s the challenge and changed dynamics of the game.

[MVP7]

I haven't looked at the code but it could also be possible to make the elevation of the spotter and the terrain and type of the unit being spotted affect the ranges. That could add a lot of new dynamics to the game even if rather gamey.

[Karvon]

I think LOS dynamics are hardcoded in the unity engine, so not sure if you add elevation elements to a mod or not. You might be able to modify by unit type though.

Karvon

[pipfromslitherine]

FoG2 isn't written in Unity. Perhaps you are thinking of the original FoG?

Cheers

Pip

[Karvon]

Here are the visibility rules from WRG 7th as a point of reference:

In the WRG Ancients 7th Edition rules (7th Ed) the visibility/line‐of‐sight (LOS) limits are detailed under the “Visibility” section.

Here are the key limits:

Daylight / clear conditions, open ground

Troops in the open on low ground: visible up to 720 paces.

If either viewer or target is on higher ground: visible up to 1,200 paces.

Reduced-light conditions

Dusk / dawn: visible up to 240 paces.

Moonlight: visible up to 120 paces.

Moonless or cloudy night: visible up to 80 paces.

Adverse weather / dust / mist / etc

Falling rain (day or night): visibility halved from the normal value.

Falling snow, mist, dust storms, or moving/shooting troops raising dust within 240 paces:

Day: max visibility 160 paces.

Dawn/dusk: max visibility 80 paces.

Night: max visibility 40 paces.

Terrain & concealment adjustments

Troops inside a wood or built-up area: cannot be seen from beyond 40 paces (unless they are less than that inside) and from an orchard/olive grove: up to 120 paces.

Troops making approach moves or halted in vineyards, marsh, rocky areas or brush: cannot be seen beyond 120 paces.

Troops at least halfway up hills: cannot be seen or see others beyond 480 paces when there is an intervening crest, ridge, knoll, wood, etc. Those lower on hills cannot see over those obstacles at all.

Troops on same hill: cannot see each other beyond 80 paces. Across any crest: beyond 40 paces they cannot see.

[Karvon]

FoG2 isn't written in Unity. Perhaps you are thinking of the original FoG?

Cheers

Pip

Heh, not a programmer, so not up on the details of the game engine; the point being I'm pretty sure all the LOS geometry calculations regarding terrain are hard-coded into the game engine, though my understanding from past RBS posts is range is modifiable via mods. Thus, we can't change how hills affect LOS, for example.

Regards,

Karvon

[SuitedQueens]

FoG2 isn't written in Unity. Perhaps you are thinking of the original FoG?

Cheers

Pip

Honestly I love your system. Allows to plan from the start, forces you to count enemy points, and actually there are many fun engine buggy quirky behaviors related to units visibility in BUAs, camera movements giving away positioning, AI short memory allowing infinite kiting, breaking away pursuits.

What I wish there was more of is number of said terrain features generated by Pot Luck. For example exported battles from Empires or Kingdoms produce richer terrains in terms of sheer number of affected tiles. The 2nd not so great feature is the angle of view for units which makes it more difficult to hide troops behind the level 1 hills unlike say Rome 2 Total War.

[Triarii]

I agree that being able to change the visible range would be a welcome added 'chrome' benefit.

The possibility of reducing the LOS range due to weather effects would add another dynamic.
Given that ice/frozen is already possible could that LOS range limitation be a development wish?
e.g.
Fog 1/4 - (25%)
Heavy Rain/Downpour/Snow - 1/2 (75%)
Light Rain/Mist - 3/4 - (75%)
- possibly randomising or limiting the game turns in which it applied.

Have no idea on the practicality of any of that from a coding point of view, or whether there would be an appetite for it.
However enabling events of the Teutoberger Wald, Towton, Barnet, Peipus type does seem a beguiling addition to this great system.

[Cronos09]

I've been thinking some time about the line-of-sight range. Base game's is 20, which to me is too long.

What would be a challenging yet enjoyable range for MP games? I'm thinking 10 or maybe 7, which could make a true difference to MP and add more nerve. 5 may be too low, but is worthwhile considering.

Thoughts and ideas?

What's the problem with adding the desired visibility to a mod and seeing the results?
For example, I created an additional skirmish type in P&S: Open Battle - Fog of War. Then I took Richard's script from Lutzen historical battle and added it to SLITH_RANDOMMAP2.BSF with some minor changes like this:

Code: Select all

	// CUSTOM - Set variable visibility for fog etc.
	visibility = SkewedRandom(4, 8, 1) * 10;

	for (j = 0; j < 2; j++)
	{
		for (i = 0; i < GetUnitCount(j); i++)
		{
			id = GetUnitID(j,i);
			if (id != -1)
				{
					v = visibility;
					// Increase visibility for units on windmill hill
					if ((GetTileHeight(GetUnitX(id), GetUnitY(id)) >= 50) && (GetTileHeight(GetUnitX(id), GetUnitY(id)) < 100))
						{
							v += 10;
						}
					if (GetTileHeight(GetUnitX(id), GetUnitY(id)) >= 100)
						{
							v += 20;
						}						
					SetAttrib(id, "LOS", v);
				}
		}
	}

Each turn I get random visibility from 4 to 8 tiles plus 1 tile from a height of up to 100 and 2 tiles from a height of 100 or more. I played 2 MP matches and in the last the main battle took place with the lines rotated 90 degrees from their original positions. Very funny battles.

[kronenblatt]

What's the problem with adding the desired visibility to a mod and seeing the results?

Not a problem at all, I did just that:

viewtopic.php?p=1063095#p1063095

[tyronec]

Not a problem at all, I did just that:

viewtopic.php?p=1063095#p1063095

This looks to be a really interesting mod that adds something to the game.
Being able to amend the range by adjusting the players points is fine for SP as you can choose not to use the extra points. However I don't think this works well for MP, it is more complicated to set up games and you cannot play with standard force values.
Could you set up the mod with just a fixed range - I think 9 would be a good value ?

Also, what happens if one player is using the mod and their opponent hasn't installed it, will the game still play correctly ?

[Karvon]

The original mod he made has a fixed range of 9. It's available now in three options: range 9, range 9 plus no undo moves, and the newest variable range option.

Like any other mod, both players have to have it installed in order to play. I believe if you don't have the mod installed, the game is greyed out in the server.

[kronenblatt]

Being able to amend the range by adjusting the players points is fine for SP as you can choose not to use the extra points.

However I don't think this works well for MP, it is more complicated to set up games and you cannot play with standard force values.

If you have the skills to set the game up in SP, you can probably do so in MP too.

Plus maximum FP difference is 5 FP, one fifth of the cost for a Light Javelinmen unit, so not much to fuzz about.

In any event, mods are made to offer flexibility and inspiration , so are not compulsory to use.

[tyronec]

The original mod he made has a fixed range of 9. It's available now in three options: range 9, range 9 plus no undo moves

OK, thanks. I hadn't realised there was this version.
Will try it out and maybe use it in the next HOML.

[Karvon]

The original mod he made has a fixed range of 9. It's available now in three options: range 9, range 9 plus no undo moves

OK, thanks. I hadn't realised there was this version.
Will try it out and maybe use it in the next HOML.

Nice. I'm thinking of adding the basic range 9 to Chaos and Little Wars next time as well

Karvon