AAR2 - Joe (Axis) vs Ronnie (Allied) (The War is Over!)

jjdenver · Post by **jjdenver** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:53 pm

Unfortunately I think he'll knock Russia out soon as well. If by some miracle you can hold on until winter in Russia then maybe you have a shot to do something in '44.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:33 pm

jjdenver wrote:Unfortunately I think he'll knock Russia out soon as well. If by some miracle you can hold on until winter in Russia then maybe you have a shot to do something in '44.

jjdenver · Post by **jjdenver** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:53 pm

Hopefully I'm being too hasty in judgement - but that is a whole lot of Germans lined up. I guess it's only 8(?) turns or so until winter?

trulster · Post by **trulster** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:32 pm

Very nice AAR! To offer some critique, I think you have been too passive with US/UK, putting that massive navy in the Med only to take rather inconsequential Northern Africa while letting your convoys get raped? You gotta put more real pressure on the Axis to save Russia. Invade Greece to strike at Bulgaria/Rumania or go for Southern France.

With only one armour for localised counterattacks around Omsk though, it seems the end is near. As that area is key you should get the US/UK air up there to help if possible.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:06 pm

I think this AAR is useful for understanding what CEAW is intended to be: a simulation wargame with the most possible historical accuracy. I´ve played another strategic wargames (HOI 2, Gary Grisby´s World at War, etc) and anyone has the historical simulation possibilities that CEAW has. I don´t find funny in a simulation wargame that the romanian army can make a sea landing in Scotland or (as in this AAR has happened) that the Free french, the british and the american forces can be fighting in the Caucasus with an huge nazi army. This is simply unhistorical and there are a very much little possibilities that this could be happen in the real war. I think CEAW should offer the possibility of taking command of the, more or less, same forces deployed in the many scenarios of the war and with this forces you can make it better or worse than the allied or the axis commanders did. But, look all of these axis units near Omsk. Anyone of us really think that it was logistically possible for the Wehrmacht to deploy such an army in Siberia? For what I know, it wasn´t possible...

trulster · Post by **trulster** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:02 pm

leridano wrote: (as in this AAR has happened) that the Free french, the british and the american forces can be fighting in the Caucasus with an huge nazi army. ..

Yeah, this is a bit fishy. In terms of active cooperation on the tactical level there was little going on between the Western Allies and the Soviets. Working with the Free French was enough of a challenge!

The best way to model this in this game is I think to reduce the supply level for US/British/Free French units in Soviet hexes, and vice versa. Then, you still have the freedom to pull stunts like in this game report, but it will be less efficient.

ncali · Post by **ncali** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:46 pm

trulster wrote:
leridano wrote: (as in this AAR has happened) that the Free french, the british and the american forces can be fighting in the Caucasus with an huge nazi army. ..
Yeah, this is a bit fishy. In terms of active cooperation on the tactical level there was little going on between the Western Allies and the Soviets. Working with the Free French was enough of a challenge!

The best way to model this in this game is I think to reduce the supply level for US/British/Free French units in Soviet hexes, and vice versa. Then, you still have the freedom to pull stunts like in this game report, but it will be less efficient.

Not to sidetrack the AAR - but this is a great idea, in my opinion. My understanding is that the Soviets confiscated Allied planes that landed in Russia and at least temporarily interned Allied pilots. I actually think an outright ban of any Soviet/Western Allied cooperation is more appropriate to model the real war. But then a situation like this game came up. Iif the Soviets had been in such a desparate position as in this game, I could see them (maybe) allowing Allied troops in to the country to prevent a total collapse. A supply penalty seems like a reasonable compromise.

Clark · Post by **Clark** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:14 pm

leridano wrote:I think this AAR is useful for understanding what CEAW is intended to be: a simulation wargame with the most possible historical accuracy. I´ve played another strategic wargames (HOI 2, Gary Grisby´s World at War, etc) and anyone has the historical simulation possibilities that CEAW has. I don´t find funny in a simulation wargame that the romanian army can make a sea landing in Scotland or (as in this AAR has happened) that the Free french, the british and the american forces can be fighting in the Caucasus with an huge nazi army. This is simply unhistorical and there are a very much little possibilities that this could be happen in the real war. I think CEAW should offer the possibility of taking command of the, more or less, same forces deployed in the many scenarios of the war and with this forces you can make it better or worse than the allied or the axis commanders did. But, look all of these axis units near Omsk. Anyone of us really think that it was logistically possible for the Wehrmacht to deploy such an army in Siberia? For what I know, it wasn´t possible...

CEAW does a good job of combining playability and historical accuracy. For your "Wehrmacht in Siberia" complaint, the game already takes into account the difficulty the Germans would have had in deploying an army of any size that far east of Moscow. Their units deployed to Siberia have limited range, recover effectiveness more slowly, take longer to reinforce to full strength, and cannot travel by railroad. Now, the game could be even more technically accurate, making it near impossible to deploy more than a token German force deep into Siberia, but nobody would want to play a game where the Germans could never, ever knock the Soviets out of the war.

Overall, I think the idea of "taking command of the, more or less, same forces deployed in the many scenarios of the war and with this forces you can make it better or worse than the allied or the axis commanders did" is ultimately flawed. If one performs better or worse than the Allied or Axis commanders did in any respective situation, it's going to generally be the result of better or worse tactics and better or worse strategies. And better outcomes in earlier battles, especially when combined with a different overall strategy, will necessarily result in scenarios that are unhistorical. World War Two itself is replete with examples that someone in 1936 would have considered absolutely impossible.

jjdenver · Post by **jjdenver** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:21 pm

Clark wrote:Now, the game could be even more technically accurate, making it near impossible to deploy more than a token German force deep into Siberia,

I'm not sure why we'd assume it would be impossible for the Germans to advance to the Ural factories? Why exactly is this impossible?

AFAIK we're not talking about driving a panzer army to Vladivostok, we're just talking about the Ural factories area. Big difference, and it seems possible AFAIK.

Clark · Post by **Clark** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:14 pm

jjdenver wrote:
Clark wrote:Now, the game could be even more technically accurate, making it near impossible to deploy more than a token German force deep into Siberia,
I'm not sure why we'd assume it would be impossible for the Germans to advance to the Ural factories? Why exactly is this impossible?

AFAIK we're not talking about driving a panzer army to Vladivostok, we're just talking about the Ural factories area. Big difference, and it seems possible AFAIK.

Apologies if I was unclear. I think it would have been difficult but not impossible "in the real world" for the Germans to effectively and quickly supply a large army all the way to Perm. Perm is almost as far from Moscow as Moscow is from Berlin. That's a long way to haul ammunition, parts, food, equipment, and gasoline - a huge logistical challenge.

Now, that's a logistical challenge that the game designers have attempted to incorporate into the game. But they've struck a balance without making it near impossible for the Germans to ever knock out the Russians. If the designers had it made it slightly more difficult for the German forces (even more reduced range, reduced effectiveness, and so on) I think it would probably have made it more "realistic", but slanted the game too far against the Germans and thus made it less fun to play.

gerones · Post by **gerones** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:16 pm

Clark wrote: And better outcomes in earlier battles, especially when combined with a different overall strategy, will necessarily result in scenarios that are unhistorical.

This is obvious. It is impossible to get a 100% historical simulation wargame in any ways.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:41 pm

leridano wrote:
Clark wrote: And better outcomes in earlier battles, especially when combined with a different overall strategy, will necessarily result in scenarios that are unhistorical.
This is obvious. It is impossible to get a 100% historical simulation wargame in any ways.

Historical what if's are always open to debate and fun to argue.

For example, the Japanese took Singapore overland and from the rear. If that event had never happened would we today consider that "possibility" historically feasible?

What about the German invasion of Norway? Surely the mighty RN and French navies combined with RAF, French air forces and UK & French ground troops sent to the aid of and allied with Norway would have made such an invasion by the German's folly. Right?

And, surely it's not historical to give the Japanese the ability to sail a carrier strike force 1000's of miles across the Pacific undetected and for it to surprise and attack the US Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor. I know that would be practically impossible. Right?

And then ... Germany taking out France in 40-days. That's just laughably; especially after France stood up and survive 4 long years against Germany only 22-years earlier.

JyriErik · Post by **JyriErik** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:07 pm

One other comment on "historicity". Forget the problems the Germans would have had supplying their forces east of the Urals, the Russians would likely had worse problems. 70% of their industrial base was west of the Urals and the majority of their oil production was also. I suspect neither side historically could have supported major operations that far to the east of Moscow. Coupled with the fact that (IIRC) 80% of the population also lived west of the Urals, the war in Russia would have pretty ended if the Germans had reached the Urals. In the game, there's a need for "ahistorical" situations since any game system can be exploited and by having some "ahistorical" situations allows things from getting too much out of hand against players who already base their play on 20-20 hindsight.

Jyri

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:31 am

July 2, 1942. Bitter Fighting Continues in the Caucuses. Russians Near Breaking Point. Will the Russian Government Collapse? RAF and US Army Air Corps Rest and Repair. Forces Assembling, Preparing and Training for Operation Left Hook.

Operation Left Hook will be composed of two invasion forces. The largest force will be composed of US land forces and will originate from the US east coast. The second, and smallest, will sail from Gibraltar and be include UK ground troops. I decide to split the invasion into two groups for two reasons. To upgrade and repair a small number of the fleets in the smaller force. And, to maintain the naval minimum in the Med for as long as possible in order not to tip Joe off any sooner than I need too, assuming his u-boats haven't spotted my fleet and deduced my intentions.

I'm about to play my last card ... though the odds are definitely large and against me ... I would have 0% chance if I did play it.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:09 am

July 22, 1943. Caucuses: Small Gains, Bitter Fighting! Russian Government Nears Tipping Point. Russian Army Continues Fighting. Left Hook: Main Invasion Force Sails. Smaller Invasion Force Repairs and Upgrades.

Looking at the German losses German manpower has to be getting close to 50%. My hope is that his manpower is below 50% and his oil stockpiles are getting low. I really need an early winter in Russia. Even assuming the earliest I don't see how Russia can hold out that long. But, if I can hold out close to winter then when winter strikes that will make it even more difficult for Joe to transfer troops from eastern Russian to the west.

MrPlow · Post by **MrPlow** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:50 am

Whatever the outcome of this game is, I just thought I'd let you know that I have enjoyed this AAR immensely! Also, congratulations on breaking 10000 page views, that is quite a milestone to achieve! I really appreciate all the hard work you put into your AAR. Well done!

Cheers,
MrPlow

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:01 am

MrPlow wrote:Whatever the outcome of this game is, I just thought I'd let you know that I have enjoyed this AAR immensely! Also, congratulations on breaking 10000 page views, that is quite a milestone to achieve! I really appreciate all the hard work you put into your AAR. Well done!

Cheers,
MrPlow

Thanks for the kind words. By the way, your AAR against jjdenver was what inspired this AAR section and the number of posts (18,704) that that one got has set the bar very high for an AAR.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:51 pm

August 11, 1943. Russia, Situation Critical! Russians Abandoned Research. Money Used for Immediate Forces. Caucuses Offensive Bogging Down. Allied Bombers Effective Against German U-boats. Operation Left Hook Main Fleet Discovered. Operation Left Hook Secondary Fleet Sails from Gibraltar. Allies Abandoned Naval Presence in the Med.

rkr1958 · Post by **rkr1958** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:44 pm

August 31, 1943. Major Air and Naval Battle in the Atlantic. Losses Heavy on Both Sides! Operation Left Hook Invasion Fleets Push On! Russia Close to Surrender! Caucuses Offensive Called Off. US and UK Forces There Prepare for Russian Surrender.

At this point and time in the game the liberation of France would be a "moral" victory. This will be a tall order given the game situation but that is my objective and that is what I will focus on achieving for now.

If "Operation Left Hook" turns out to be a dismal failure or the Allied position in France stalls like it did in the Caucuses then the US and UK will approach the Germans to negotiate conditions for a cease fire in Europe. But, we're not there yet and any talk of defeatism is only unofficial, or kept secret; especially, at the highest levels.

By the way, there even isn't enough room to deploy new Russian builds in the Urals. At least Joe's knockout blow in Russia will allow me a chance to get an invasion force ashore in France. Otherwise; if he'd kept a holding force in Russia and deployed a large force to France I would have had 0% chance of a successful landing. As it is now, it may not be much better; but at least it's some.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:15 am

How does this game fit in the scheme of games you've played? Typical events? Bizarre events? I've never really got late in the game, so was wondering how it compared to past ones.