AGE OF REASON MOD Version 2.0

[Lysimachos]

A lot of interesting considerations!

I will surely take good note of them!

[Athos1660]

In your mod, are the Carabiniers (Determined Horse with only Carbine et Swordsmen as capabilities) and/or the Arkbusiers (Horse with only Carbine) in armies such as the French or the Prussians made to simulate the spread of using the Dragoons as charging units on horseback on the battlefields of the 18th-century ?

[Athos1660]

1699-1726 period mod.
When the best French cav meets one of the best British cav units in a Disrupted State :





What's the ending of this story ? Something about their cost being exactely the same (47).

(And the rest of the British Impact Mounted cost only 40 and 45.)

[Athos1660]

The different types of battles during the period

I took a quick look at ‘The Twilight of the Soldier Kings’ rules for table-top miniatures in the era of Frederick the Great (1730 to 1770).

According to these rules :

"In most cases, one player will be the defender, the other the attacker. Encounter battles were much rarer irl. In defender vs Attacker battles, there are two options :

1) the Pitched battle (the classical one) : the armies are on table in their half of the table and generally facing up to each other. The defender will usually have something to protect. There might be streams or special terrain protecting its front and flanks. The defender is deplloyed first and can fire their guns at the start of the game.

2) the ‘Manoeuvre' battle : the defending army is in active and placed in the centre of the table with a wide area empty of troops around them. The attacking army can then attempt to march around the defending army to attack from one or more different directions. Alternatively the attacking army can arrive on table in sections from all edges of the table in a converging attack. Of course these manoeuvres might not work or can be delayed or the inactive defenders can activate and react to the situation."

Afaik P&S allows only Pitched battles, not manoeuvre ones.

However, according to the rules mentionned above, it may be intereresting to try and play this mod with Open battles, Attack and Defend scenarios in P&S and reduced width (like the Very Narrow Map Size for the English (Continental) 1415 in the Custom battle of FoGM).

That may make the cav job harder when trying to flank the infantry which might be historical.

[Athos1660]

I guess being able to add Chevaux de frise (movable barriers lined with spikes) and Earthworks to the defensive infantry (like the stakes and other defensive assets in FoGM) would be nice.

[Lysimachos]

In your mod, are the Carabiniers (Determined Horse with only Carbine et Swordsmen as capabilities) and/or the Arkbusiers (Horse with only Carbine) in armies such as the French or the Prussians made to simulate the spread of using the Dragoons as charging units on horseback on the battlefields of the 18th-century ?

They should be the Carabiniers but, probably, it would have been better to give them some impact potential ..

[Lysimachos]

The different types of battles during the period

I took a quick look at ‘The Twilight of the Soldier Kings’ rules for table-top miniatures in the era of Frederick the Great (1730 to 1770).

According to these rules :

"In most cases, one player will be the defender, the other the attacker. Encounter battles were much rarer irl. In defender vs Attacker battles, there are two options :

1) the Pitched battle (the classical one) : the armies are on table in their half of the table and generally facing up to each other. The defender will usually have something to protect. There might be streams or special terrain protecting its front and flanks. The defender is deplloyed first and can fire their guns at the start of the game.

2) the ‘Manoeuvre' battle : the defending army is in active and placed in the centre of the table with a wide area empty of troops around them. The attacking army can then attempt to march around the defending army to attack from one or more different directions. Alternatively the attacking army can arrive on table in sections from all edges of the table in a converging attack. Of course these manoeuvres might not work or can be delayed or the inactive defenders can activate and react to the situation."

Afaik P&S allows only Pitched battles, not manoeuvre ones.

However, according to the rules mentionned above, it may be intereresting to try and play this mod with Open battles, Attack and Defend scenarios in P&S and reduced width (like the Very Narrow Map Size for the English (Continental) 1415 in the Custom battle of FoGM).

That may make the cav job harder when trying to flank the infantry which might be historical.

That's nice.
A lot of interesting concepts that unfortunately is really hard to implement in P&S.

Anyway your last suggestion has already been put in use in two campaigns on the Tournament page of P&S ("Campaign Anno Domini 1740 AD" and "Baltic Campaign") with the notion of Encounter Battle, which is a large-scale Open Battle (2000 pts. each for the attacker and the defender) fought on a map 26 squares wide and 34 squares high, designed to simulate the unexpected confrontation of two marching Armies that suddenly discover each other at close range.

At the moment I'm also playing a campaign with smithjohnson where the defender, instead of fighting an usual Open Battle can alternatively choose to play:
an Encounter Battle, that is an Open Battle between armies of 1800 pts. fought on a map 26 squares wide and 34 squares high,
a Maneuver Battle, that is an Open Battle between armies of 1800 pts. fought on a map 44 squares wide and 32 squares high,
a Defensive Battle that is a Defend Battle between armies of 1480 pts. for the defender and 1800 pts. for the attacker, fought on a map 22 squares wide and 32 squares high.

This is a lot of fun and ensures you don't get bored!

[rbodleyscott]

I guess being able to add Chevaux de frise (movable barriers lined with spikes) and Earthworks to the defensive infantry (like the stakes and other defensive assets in FoGM) would be nice.

Just so you know, all I can see for your images is "Content not viewable in your region". This is presumably due to our neo-Puritan government, so I don't know whther there is anything you can do about it.

[Athos1660]

So you can't see this pic ?
Surprising. Just a drawing from what seems to be an old military treaty showing field fortifications (such as gabons), cheval de frise, etc. I took the pic directly from internet. I don't know the source of it. Maybe a protected pic ?

I removed the pic from my previous post.
I don't want to interfere with the Entente Cordiale between our governments
Easy for those interested to search these words on internet to find illustrations.

Thanks for the info.

[Cronos09]

...
2) the ‘Manoeuvre' battle : the defending army is in active and placed in the centre of the table with a wide area empty of troops around them. The attacking army can then attempt to march around the defending army to attack from one or more different directions. Alternatively the attacking army can arrive on table in sections from all edges of the table in a converging attack. Of course these manoeuvres might not work or can be delayed or the inactive defenders can activate and react to the situation."

I think all this can be scripted in P&S. We can use FoG2M scripts for an example, where we have more various custom battle situations. For Frederick the Great's Prussian army it must be implemented necessarily

[Athos1660]

@Cronos : As you seem interested, these rules provide more info on how they see Manoeuvre battles. They are of two types and the attacker have to choose one of them at the start :

1) 'Attaques convergentes' (converging attacks ?). Austrians are good at that one, thanks to their general staff. The attacker starts outside of the table and march to battle from any direction. The time and place of the attacker's arrival is planned before the start of the game.

2) 'Ordre oblique' (Oblique order). Prussians are good at that one. The attacker starts in front of the defender and if all goes well, can cricle him and attacks him from where he wants, while the defender remains inactive and cannot intervene.

Both types of Manoeuvre battles are meant to give an advantage to the attacker if all goes well. And there seems to be game mechanics to make it goes wrong

[Cronos09]

@Cronos : As you seem interested, these rules provide more info on how they see Manoeuvre battles. They are of two types and the attacker have to choose one of them at the start :

1) 'Attaques convergentes' (converging attacks ?). Austrians are good at that one, thanks to their general staff. The attacker starts outside of the table and march to battle from any direction. The time and place of the attacker's arrival is planned before the start of the game.

2) 'Ordre oblique' (Oblique order). Prussians are good at that one. The attacker starts in front of the defender and if all goes well, can cricle him and attacks him from where he wants, while the defender remains inactive and cannot intervene.

Both types of Manoeuvre battles are meant to give an advantage to the attacker if all goes well. And there seems to be game mechanics to make it goes wrong

As I see it, the second battle type can be implemented quite easily now:
For example, with a certain probability (determined during the pre-start turn), the second army's units cannot be moved during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turns (the second player's 1st turn has long been blocked in my P&S mods) unless the first player's units are within 5 tiles of the second army. During this time, the first player can perform at least a cavalry flanking maneuver.

For the first battle type, you need to understand the unit deployment scripts, what is not all that simple, even for me. Or you can use a variation of FoGM 'Ambush' custom battle scripts for it.

[Athos1660]

...
2) the ‘Manoeuvre' battle : the defending army is in active and placed in the centre of the table with a wide area empty of troops around them. The attacking army can then attempt to march around the defending army to attack from one or more different directions. Alternatively the attacking army can arrive on table in sections from all edges of the table in a converging attack. Of course these manoeuvres might not work or can be delayed or the inactive defenders can activate and react to the situation."

I think all this can be scripted in P&S. We can use FoG2M scripts for an example, where we have more various custom battle situations. For Frederick the Great's Prussian army it must be implemented necessarily

Btw I guess that HYW battles on narrow battlefields from when the Longbowmen get stakes might also benefit from such various (scripted, scriptable or not ?) custom battle situations : Longbowmen some/many/... of which didn't have the time to plant their stakes before the battle, French potential reinforcements able to attacks from any directions (even from behind the row of stakes), natural protections from flanking or not (such as impassable woods), English on higher terrain or not, etc.

[Athos1660]

As I see it, the second battle type can be implemented quite easily now:
For example, with a certain probability (determined during the pre-start turn), the second army's units cannot be moved during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turns (the second player's 1st turn has long been blocked in my P&S mods) unless the first player's units are within 5 tiles of the second army. During this time, the first player can perform at least a cavalry flanking maneuver.

Nice !

[Athos1660]

At the start of a game in the FoG2/P&S series, the deployment zones face each other.
Can you script them so that, randomly, they don't ?
Or is it non-changeable in the engine ?

For example :
- they start in a T-shape (I hope this tournure doesn't mean anything special in English, including for a certain neo-Puritan governement )
- or one army can only deploy with the enemy behind it
- etc.

[rbodleyscott]

At the start of a game in the FoG2/P&S series, the deployment zones face each other.
Can you script them so that, randomly, they don't ?
Or is it non-changeable in the engine ?

For example :
- they start in a T-shape (I hope this tournure doesn't mean anything special in English, including for a certain neo-Puritan governement )
- or one army can only deploy with the enemy behind it
- etc.

It would be at least theoretically scriptable, but the standard AI probably would not work properly.

So you would really need to do it as an editor created scenario with its own AI in the scenario scripts.

[Athos1660]

Ok !

Thank you very much for the reply, Richard.

[Lysimachos]

@Cronos : As you seem interested, these rules provide more info on how they see Manoeuvre battles. They are of two types and the attacker have to choose one of them at the start :

1) 'Attaques convergentes' (converging attacks ?). Austrians are good at that one, thanks to their general staff. The attacker starts outside of the table and march to battle from any direction. The time and place of the attacker's arrival is planned before the start of the game.

2) 'Ordre oblique' (Oblique order). Prussians are good at that one. The attacker starts in front of the defender and if all goes well, can cricle him and attacks him from where he wants, while the defender remains inactive and cannot intervene.

Both types of Manoeuvre battles are meant to give an advantage to the attacker if all goes well. And there seems to be game mechanics to make it goes wrong

These are interesting concepts but I fear that only few players would accept to play a battle where they must remain inactive for many turns or are forced to face an enemy coming from different directions, being situations that, though historically accurate, put the defenders in a heavily penalized position.

In the game, anyway, you have the chance of playing attack or defend battle, where the defenders has less points but, at least, some good fortifications which compensate the shortages of men ...

[Lysimachos]

It would be at least theoretically scriptable, but the standard AI probably would not work properly.

So you would really need to do it as an editor created scenario with its own AI in the scenario scripts.

And what about simply allowing a player to place the army in a wider area than the actual one at the start of the battle?
This should give much more chances of having more diversified battles and approaches to the final clash ...

Woud it be feasible to realize it, Richard, or is something difficult to implement?

[Athos1660]

@Cronos : As you seem interested, these rules provide more info on how they see Manoeuvre battles. They are of two types and the attacker have to choose one of them at the start :

1) 'Attaques convergentes' (converging attacks ?). Austrians are good at that one, thanks to their general staff. The attacker starts outside of the table and march to battle from any direction. The time and place of the attacker's arrival is planned before the start of the game.

2) 'Ordre oblique' (Oblique order). Prussians are good at that one. The attacker starts in front of the defender and if all goes well, can cricle him and attacks him from where he wants, while the defender remains inactive and cannot intervene.

Both types of Manoeuvre battles are meant to give an advantage to the attacker if all goes well. And there seems to be game mechanics to make it goes wrong

These are interesting concepts but I fear that only few players would accept to play a battle where they must remain inactive for many turns or are forced to face an enemy coming from different directions, being situations that, though historically accurate, put the defenders in a heavily penalized position.

If The Twilight of the Soldier Kings are renowed rules among the players of table-top miniatures of the 18th-century, there must be good reasons, mustn't there ? One of them is certainly that the game rules make these Maneuvres not perfect moves, so that the Defender still has good chances to win.

(...) game mechanics to make it goes wrong

Anyway I get the general idea about my ideas in general.