Rear attacks on Keil probably need a few adjusts

[Dux Limitis]

In the current version of the game, a successful attack on Keil to make its cohesion drop is by charging right into its rear when it's engaged. However, in actual combat, this attack is difficult to execute and can create some weird and ahistorical situations. It is also exploited in some multiplayer matches, where some players constantly adjust the facing of the Keil to make the rear attack impossible.

I think a plausible solution is to make both of the 45 ° angles of the rear of the Keil vulnerable, as it is unlikely that both of the 45 ° angles of the rear are protected during close combat.

[Athos1660]

It’s been discussed at length. The current version seems to be the best balance achievable. Some find this unit already too weak as is. Hard to balance this unit. Sometimes they are as slippery as a bar soap you try to grab with your wet hands. As you put it, "some players constantly adjust the facing of the Keil to make the rear attack impossible". On the other hand, even weak chargers such as archers can make their cohesion drop on a rear attack.

[Dux Limitis]

It’s been discussed at length. The current version seems to be the best balance achievable. Some find this unit already too weak as is. Hard to balance this unit. Sometimes they are as slippery as a bar soap you try to grab with your wet hands. As you put it, "some players constantly adjust the facing of the Keil to make the rear attack impossible". On the other hand, even weak chargers such as archers can make their cohesion drop on a rear attack.

Actually, archers and crossbowmen as flankers is not a big thing, for they are not cheap, at 36pt and 39pt each, and not as maneuverable as the Medium Foot. The problem is that this way of balancing is weird and unreasonable. The main reason that someone thinks the Keil is weak is that it is too expensive, so that can only field a few units of it. I think the best way to balance it is to lower its cost while making both of the 45 ° angles of its rear vulnerable.

[Athos1660]

But the general idea is to make Keils as strong (and expensive) as tanks, not easily rear-attackable poor little things.

[Athos1660]

Btw I read our highly venerable SnuggleBunnies provides several great videos on his youtube channel on how to defeat the Keils as they are currently.

[Dux Limitis]

Btw I read our highly venerable SnuggleBunnies provides several great videos on his youtube channel on how to defeat the Keils as they are currently.

I definitely know how to defeat them, and I have defeated them several times, especially when you have a Knightly Lancer or a Horse Archery army. Ironically, all kinds of Lancers are pretty good at keeping the Keil and other sorts of Pikemen at bay, thanks to the ZOC block and the removal of the Anarchy Charge rule. I might talk about this in the near future.

However, for now, I am simply pointing out that Keil's immunity to the attack from the 45 ° angles of its rear is unreasonable, all attacks coming from the rear should be deadly. And, judging by the Battle of Ceresole, though it did not happen in the Middle Ages, I don't think the Keil is immune to attacks coming from those angles. In fact, it didn't even immune to the flank attacks when engaged during this battle. The game is already generous for making it immune to all flank attacks.

[Athos1660]

Historically not the kind of unit you could kill in one shot. To beat Keils, you had to wear it, harass it, tire it again and again for hours (thanks to many cannon shots, cav charges, arrow volleys, etc.). So cohesion drop shouldn't be easy (or easier) to achieve. That's what the game should show (and actually does imho, even if maybe it could be improved).

[Dux Limitis]

Historically not the kind of unit you could kill in one shot. To beat Keils, you had to wear it, harass it, tire it again and again for hours (thanks to many cannon shots, cav charges, arrow volleys, etc.). So cohesion drop shouldn't be easy (or easier) to achieve. That's what the game should show (and actually does imho, even if maybe it could be improved).

As it should be, the cohesion drop is not always a one-shot for the Superior Determined Foot in the game, but I am just clarifying that the attack on the 45 ° angle of its rear should be causing cohesion drop, just as the 90 ° angle (By all means, what is the difference?). For now you're just speculating, there is no evidence that this angle of the Keil is protected during close combat, and also no reason it should be immune.

[SimonLancaster]

I think the Keil unit is probably balanced as it is currently. Okay, only a rear charge can make it drop cohesion but the cost is 148 pts? Super expensive. There are other cheaper pike units on the field to support it as well.

[MVP7]

Personally I lobbied for something a bit more granular than the current Death Star Trench Run required to "flank" a Keil from rear. A significant (~50-100 POA) penalty to Keil's POA against impact and melee when receiving from what is usually a side-flanking attack would have made them a bit more consistent with with other units.

Going even further, the auto cohesion drop could have been removed entirely with the Rear charge resulting in greater POA penalty for the Keil. This way destroying a keil would require a massed effort from multiple directions instead of emphasizing the historically questionable rear charges so heavily.

[Dux Limitis]

I think the Keil unit is probably balanced as it is currently. Okay, only a rear charge can make it drop cohesion but the cost is 148 pts? Super expensive. There are other cheaper pike units on the field to support it as well.

As I already said above, the nerf should be come along with the reduction of the cost.

[Dux Limitis]

Personally I lobbied for something a bit more granular than the current Death Star Trench Run required to "flank" a Keil from rear. A significant (~50-100 POA) penalty to Keil's POA against impact and melee when receiving from what is usually a side-flanking attack would have made them a bit more consistent with with other units.

Going even further, the auto cohesion drop could have been removed entirely with the Rear charge resulting in greater POA penalty for the Keil. This way destroying a keil would require a massed effort from multiple directions instead of emphasizing the historically questionable rear charges so heavily.

A sound idea, but in reality, it probably won't work well. The flank attack already receives a guaranteed POA of +50 instead of a cohesion drop for those who are not engaged in close combat (except for Keil). But most of the time, because of the RNG factor of the game, it doesn't bring much difference, based on my observations and combat experiences.

[tyronec]

The points costs for keils work about right for play balance, they are powerful in melee and difficult to disrupt from firing and rear attack. In a mixed army they are a good unit, however a keil army like the Swiss they don't have enough units to protect their rears and are less effective.
What you are suggesting by reducing the cost would make them more effective in melee for the points and that could be balanced if the opponent could get some flank attacks in, but that depends on the army mix. For some match ups it is just going to be very difficult to get rear charges in. While for other match ups (say against an army with mediocre infantry supported by a lot of mounted XBs, or a mixed infantry/horse archer opponent) it is going to be a lot easier to get in flank charges and the keils will not be good value.
I can't see a way of changing this that is going to work.

[Athos1660]

In a mixed army they are a good unit, however a keil army like the Swiss they don't have enough units to protect their rears and are less effective.

If that's the issue (that is one I've already head of), how about just systematically giving a few extra points to the Swiss/Keils armies (to make them able to buy a couple more of Light), either manually in the Custom battle panel when planning the battle (which may require smaller increases of FP than right now, such as increments of 25 or 50) or automatically via an in-game script (if possible) ? (unless the issue is the lack of non-light non-Keil units)

[tyronec]

If that's the issue (that is one I've already head of), how about just systematically giving a few extra points to the Swiss/Keils armies (to make them able to buy a couple more of Light), either manually in the Custom battle panel when planning the battle (which may require smaller increases of FP than right now, such as increments of 25 or 50) or automatically via an in-game script (if possible) ?
Top

As you say you can already do that in game by manually adjusting the number of points available for each side.
I don't think trying to automatically adjust for mismatched armies would be viable, it is not just the army list that matters but also the opposing army and the terrain and map - put the Swiss on a narrow map and they would be great !

[Athos1660]

In that case, problem solved at 80% ?
(20% for the unknown terrain at start)
(and you can alxays re-start a game if terrain is awful)