Routing in Impact phase

[philqw78]

I agree that evades should follow the turn sequence.

Within the evade segment, who chooses the evade order? In that diagram, it would be nice to evade A and B first to clear a path for C.

Yes: A and B first, then C waving to their friends which cleared its path. But you can do so only if you pay in your army list the cost of a traffic policeman

The active player decides the sequence of evades. The charger being active would choose 3. C then disrupting A and B.

To answer your earlier Q Spike. If all evades are done before all charges the VMD of 3 makes no difference as B will already have moved before 3 rolls.
If each charge is actioned in turn then C evades revealing B, 3 rolls VMD long so B is now a target of 3. Since this is a flank charge B must split the angle of its evade.

If B was not being charged by any other BG, but was revealed to 3 by C evading it would count as a target, so would get to evade. VMD is taken into account once it has been rolled. But evaders, at least where I play, move before chargers so B in the above example should always be going directly to its rear.

Whichever way you play the order of your charges a lot of cheese can be manufactured. Why did we start this thread?

[philqw78]

If 3 can only reach C, then won't A and B have the opportunity to evade to their own rear? Your diagram suggests that B evades in reaction to 3's charge.

Spike

Evading to his own rear.

But in the example 3 can reach B after VMD, unless A, B and C move before chargers

[spikemesq]

If 3 can only reach C, then won't A and B have the opportunity to evade to their own rear? Your diagram suggests that B evades in reaction to 3's charge.

Spike

Evading to his own rear.

But in the example 3 can reach B after VMD, unless A, B and C move before chargers

Curses, I meant to look this up last night. Please indulge my ignorance.

My recollection is that a BG is the target of a charge if the charging unit could reach (including by stepping forward) that BG at the time of declaration. If another target's evade clears the charger's path then the new target also has an opportunity to evade.

So an evade can happen as the result of another evade.

I thought, however, that unlike stepping forward, VMD does not factor into the charge target analysis because it does not extend the charge range at the declaration stage. Can someone confirm this?

In the example, if 3's charge range does not reach B, it is not a target at declaration. If a high VMD (i.e., +2 MU) extends the reach to include B, I thought that B could not evade.

In a game, of course, I would just look this up, and suspect that it is in the rules.

At bottom, does the VMD of a charge extend its declaration to trigger evades, tests for fragged BGs, etc.?

Spike

The dense one.

[philqw78]

If 3 can only reach C, then won't A and B have the opportunity to evade to their own rear? Your diagram suggests that B evades in reaction to 3's charge.

Spike

Evading to his own rear.

But in the example 3 can reach B after VMD, unless A, B and C move before chargers

Curses, I meant to look this up last night. Please indulge my ignorance.

My recollection is that a BG is the target of a charge if the charging unit could reach (including by stepping forward) that BG at the time of declaration. If another target's evade clears the charger's path then the new target also has an opportunity to evade.

So an evade can happen as the result of another evade.

I thought, however, that unlike stepping forward, VMD does not factor into the charge target analysis because it does not extend the charge range at the declaration stage. Can someone confirm this?

In the example, if 3's charge range does not reach B, it is not a target at declaration. If a high VMD (i.e., +2 MU) extends the reach to include B, I thought that B could not evade.

In a game, of course, I would just look this up, and suspect that it is in the rules.

At bottom, does the VMD of a charge extend its declaration to trigger evades, tests for fragged BGs, etc.?

Spike

The dense one.

It depnds in what order you play charges and evades. If you do each charge and all its reactions in turn then B would become a target, because 3 is moved before 1 and 2 and before reaction to their charges. This is why IMO all evades are moved before all charges. Then 3's VMD would make no difference to B as B would have already moved before it was rolled.

[batesmotel]

The VMD only occurs if all of the targets of the charge have evaded. So until the VMD is actually made no additional evades are done based on the potential extra distance. I think that only at that point should anyone who would be affected by the extra VMD distance get to evade. (Hmmm, not sure how this works in the turn sequence.)

Chris

...
Curses, I meant to look this up last night. Please indulge my ignorance.

My recollection is that a BG is the target of a charge if the charging unit could reach (including by stepping forward) that BG at the time of declaration. If another target's evade clears the charger's path then the new target also has an opportunity to evade.

So an evade can happen as the result of another evade.

I thought, however, that unlike stepping forward, VMD does not factor into the charge target analysis because it does not extend the charge range at the declaration stage. Can someone confirm this?

In the example, if 3's charge range does not reach B, it is not a target at declaration. If a high VMD (i.e., +2 MU) extends the reach to include B, I thought that B could not evade.

In a game, of course, I would just look this up, and suspect that it is in the rules.

At bottom, does the VMD of a charge extend its declaration to trigger evades, tests for fragged BGs, etc.?

Spike

The dense one.

[spikemesq]

It depnds in what order you play charges and evades. If you do each charge and all its reactions in turn then B would become a target, because 3 is moved before 1 and 2 and before reaction to their charges. This is why IMO all evades are moved before all charges. Then 3's VMD would make no difference to B as B would have already moved before it was rolled.

To isolate my question, change the diagram so that only 3 is charging the end of the line.

It declares and C is the target. A and B are not because they cannot be contacted by the charge or by step forwards.

C evades well out of the path. 3 rolls a WMD of 6 for +2 MU. Now it can reach the flank of B.

Can B evade now?

The sequence is Declare/Evade/Charge.

According to the sequence, charge declaration establishes who can react. To the extent an evade adds a target by removing an obstruction, the evade segment adjusts.

Then the charge happens.

I think this means that enemy that can only be reached because of the VMD are not able to react to the charge because they are not a declared target and are hit after the evade segment.

Is this right?

Spike

[philqw78]

The sequence is Declare/Evade/Charge.

According to the sequence, charge declaration establishes who can react. To the extent an evade adds a target by removing an obstruction, the evade segment adjusts.

Then the charge happens.

I think this means that enemy that can only be reached because of the VMD are not able to react to the charge because they are not a declared target and are hit after the evade segment.

Is this right?

Spike

We play that new targets can evade, but I couldn't find anything in the rules, good question.

[dave_r]

In the bit about pursuits it states that any BG that is contacted has the option to evade.

If the initial charge was not in range then this must be considered a pursuit allowing the contacted BG to evade.

[philqw78]

In the bit about pursuits it states that any BG that is contacted has the option to evade.

If the initial charge was not in range then this must be considered a pursuit allowing the contacted BG to evade.

Even thoguh it isn't one?

[batesmotel]

In the bit about pursuits it states that any BG that is contacted has the option to evade.

If the initial charge was not in range then this must be considered a pursuit allowing the contacted BG to evade.

Even thoguh it isn't one?

It seems pretty clear that the intent of the rules is that the target BG in this situation should have the option to evade even if it isn't entirely clearly spelled out.

Chris

[dave_r]

Even thoguh it isn't one?

If the BG wishing to evade is in range of the charge then it can evade.

If you are claiming it wasn't part of the charge then the BG MUST be pursuing.

You can't have it both ways

[philqw78]

If the BG wishing to evade is in range of the charge then it can evade.

If you are claiming it wasn't part of the charge then the BG MUST be pursuing.

You can't have it both ways

Dave, I've already said we play it that way at our club, something I thought you might know, but it isn't totally clear in the rules. An extra line would have been usefuloe on page 68 column 2 first para.

[sagji]

Hence, if you do the charge evade as per marioslaz suggestion

- C will evade and burst through both B and A (Disrupting both)
- C will make it's charge and hit B
- B will then evade and burst through A (Fragmenting A)
- C will then continue it's charge and hit A
- A will make a test for being charged whilst fragmented
- If it passes it will then evade
- If C catches any of these BG's they will either Disrupt, Fragment or Break (depending upon which one got caught)

Not a good state of affairs and a good reason for doing ALL the evades prior to charges as per the turn sequence!!!

The sequence isn't correct.
The correct sequence is.
- Choose 3 as first charge to resolve.
- C now evades, through A and B as it is only charged by 3.
- All 3's targets have evaded and B is not in range so roll 3's VMD. B is now in range, but A isn't.
- B is now a target of 3 and 2, so evades from both - it can turn 180 and wheel to be parallel to the bisected angle of 2 and 3's charges. This means it doesn't pass through A - which doesn't make a difference as you only drop once per phase for being burst through (p49 RHS 1st para)
- 3 now has no targets and has rolled its VMD so makes it charge move.
- Choose 1 as the next charge to resolve.
- A evades straight back - bursting through B if it is in the way, but B doesn't drop again.
- If B was in the way and is in range of 1 then 1 charges into it.
- Otherwise 1 rolls a VMD and moves.
- If 1 contacts A or B then that BG drops to fragmented and the contacted bases turn.
- Now choose 2's charge to resolve.
- The chances are that 3 has blocked 2 so that 2's charge is canceled.

Specifically once B becomes a target of the charge being resolved its evade becomes part of the resolution of that charge.

[sagji]

If you count each charge completely individually all will go left from 3's charge and all will fragment

No - because B is still being charged by 2 so will split the angle.
No - because you only drop once if burst through by multiple units.

EDIT: Added
Also it was stated that the VMD didn't reach A.

[philqw78]

If you count each charge completely individually all will go left from 3's charge and all will fragment

No - because B is still being charged by 2 so will split the angle.

Not if each charge is actioned individually, you are combining two charges there.

No - because you only drop once if burst through by multiple units.

Agreed, I can't remember everything

[sagji]

It depnds in what order you play charges and evades. If you do each charge and all its reactions in turn then B would become a target, because 3 is moved before 1 and 2 and before reaction to their charges. This is why IMO all evades are moved before all charges. Then 3's VMD would make no difference to B as B would have already moved before it was rolled.

To isolate my question, change the diagram so that only 3 is charging the end of the line.

It declares and C is the target. A and B are not because they cannot be contacted by the charge or by step forwards.

C evades well out of the path. 3 rolls a WMD of 6 for +2 MU. Now it can reach the flank of B.

Can B evade now?

The sequence is Declare/Evade/Charge.

According to the sequence, charge declaration establishes who can react. To the extent an evade adds a target by removing an obstruction, the evade segment adjusts.

Then the charge happens.

I think this means that enemy that can only be reached because of the VMD are not able to react to the charge because they are not a declared target and are hit after the evade segment.

Is this right?

Spike

I suspect that the intent is that it is being in the path of a charge that enables, or requires, a BG to evade, or test for being charged when fragmented. However the rules appear to ignore the possibility that a high VMD may add targets - the wording in charge declaration only refers to evades or routs allowing a BG to become a target, the sequence of play has the same limitation, and the section on charger's response to all targets evading does not give any additional information. Nothing specifically says that you don't become the target of a charge as a result of the charger's VMD, or that you can't respond.

I have always played that the charger's VMD can result in new BGs being targets and having the option to evade, and having to test for being charged if fragmented.

[sagji]

If you count each charge completely individually all will go left from 3's charge and all will fragment

No - because B is still being charged by 2 so will split the angle.

Not if each charge is actioned individually, you are combining two charges there.

Each charge is actioned one at a time, but not in isolation. Even though 2's charge is not yet being actioned 2 is still charging B, thus when B evades it is being charged by both 3 and 2.

[philqw78]

No, all evades are actioned then all charges, at least in my opinion thats what the rules say

[spikemesq]

In the bit about pursuits it states that any BG that is contacted has the option to evade.

If the initial charge was not in range then this must be considered a pursuit allowing the contacted BG to evade.

With the rules at hand this time, I do not see this bit in the section on Impact Phase or on pursuits.

I also disagree that that a static BG that was beyond charge range (and therefore not a charge target) transforms a charge move into a pursuit.

Indeed, I have a number of questions now about impact and will start a new thread.

Spike

The inquisitive one.

[dave_r]

I do not see this bit in the section on Impact Phase or on pursuits

Page 108. "Non-shock cavalry, camelry or light chariots entirely 1 base deep or skirmishers that would be contacted by enemy pursuers in any phase can evade (unless they are already in close combat other than only as an overlap"

Evade moves - pg 64

"Non-shock cavalry, camelry or light chariots entirely 1 base deep or skirmishers can choose to evade an enemy battle group's charge unless they are already in close combat other than only as an overlap"

Charging - pg 53

"A charging battle group must make a charge move in one of two ways:

1. Advance directly ahead, up to the full extent of its charge move (plus any variable move distance to contact evaders) to "legally" contact any part of hte target battle group(s)"

This is further re-inforced by pg 58:

"if the enemy who would be charged are capable of evading - see later - assume a charge move distance of 2MU's more than the shock troops' normal move distance. This is the maximum variable move distance that could be added"

Therefore:

- You would only make this roll if all BG's initially evade out of normal move distance
- Once this roll is made it adds to the charge move
- i.e. the VMD is part of the charge move
- Any target can thus evade