Massed peltasts

[vakarr]

I notice that the Thracian lists now have compulsory spammed massed peltasts but nothing has been done to make them more like peltasts or more like Thracians. This is a particularly useless troop type that is not as good as your run-of-the mill nameless hill tribesmen (with 100% swords). It doesn't even do well against massed bowmen. Is there some way it could be made more like the Thracians or at least more like peltasts? Like, could it be made to operate like cavalry, so that if it doesn't win, it breaks off? I saw one do that against pikes once, it was great! Or could it at least be made "above average" as Thracian peltasts were regarded as better than the rest? I tried out the new Thracian list in the HOML competition and it was pathetic to see what these units could do, even in a mirror competition without allies.

[Paul59]

I notice that the Thracian lists now have compulsory spammed massed peltasts but nothing has been done to make them more like peltasts or more like Thracians. This is a particularly useless troop type that is not as good as your run-of-the mill nameless hill tribesmen (with 100% swords). It doesn't even do well against massed bowmen. Is there some way it could be made more like the Thracians or at least more like peltasts? Like, could it be made to operate like cavalry, so that if it doesn't win, it breaks off? I saw one do that against pikes once, it was great! Or could it at least be made "above average" as Thracian peltasts were regarded as better than the rest? I tried out the new Thracian list in the HOML competition and it was pathetic to see what these units could do, even in a mirror competition without allies.

I'm not disagreeing with your general point, but just to be accurate; the "run-of-the mill nameless hill tribesmen" are not 100% swordsmen. They are 50%, the same as the Thracian Medium Javelins. The Thracians have an armour advantage over the Hillmen; 50% versus 25%.

[Karvon]

I actually like, and use, these guys; they are great filler for flanking and dealing with opposing lights. Having a greater variety also makes it easier to maximize your points, fewer go unspent.

Karvon

[vakarr]

I didn't realise that the hillmen, irregular foot etc have all had their armour downgraded for some reason. It's OK to use the Thracian massed peltasts as filler in some army - something I did in the past - but not in the huge numbers required now. If they could bounce off like cavalry it would make them much more like their historical troop type and not such a liability.

There are still armies like the Huns which have "fierce" troops that are better than the rest, but the Thracians don't have any such troops, when evidently they did so. They should either have more protected heavy cavalry or superior light cavalry. Their peltasts should have some or all that are superior. The light infantry peltasts should not falter when faced by Cretan archers or Balearic slingers, but they do, despite having better armour and more swords - being superior is more important in the long term.

[SimonLancaster]

The fierce light cavalry units are really expensive. I don't like them myself but perhaps okay if you take just a few in your army.

[vakarr]

Well that's partly because they are double armed, which further increases the cost, but they do earn their points. If you don't believe they were all fierce but some of them were, then it's no trouble to have some that are "fierce" and some that aren't. Would be interesting to try some light horse with javelins and swords, by the way.

It would be so much more fun to have massed peltasts that didn't die every time they attacked something and just bounced off instead, like real peltasts.

[SimonLancaster]

Maybe you would have more luck with getting extra cavalry in the Thracian lists.

The Massed Peltast unit you are talking about is 33 pts? This is very cheap for a full infantry unit. Cretan Archers are 39 pts and only light foot. Balearic Slingers are 36 pts. Yes, the unit is quite poor but for the price you can't complain really.

As I mentioned before, the Thracians with HW are now above average quality and quality is a big thing in the FoG 2 universe. This is a definite plus for the Thracian lists.

Maybe there could be more units like Citizen Hoplites in the Thracian lists? Heavy foot with spear?

[vakarr]

Well the rhomphia men only get to be "above average" because the heavy weapon was downgraded to ignore only 50% of armour to suit the medieval game. You only get them in the later Thracian lists and I would like to see the early Thracian lists fight more fiercely like their historical counterparts. 33 points spent on massed peltasts is usually wasted. The points spent on Balaeric slingers and Creten Archers are well worth it. I see you have trouble coping with the idea of not having any of your beloved heavy infantry and maybe some more Greek foot would be nice but I would prefer to see Thracians behaving more like Thracians - they were clearly on a par with the Gauls.

[SimonLancaster]

Some of the earlier lists get Mercenary Hoplites who apparently come from Athens.

The later Thracian lists from 350 BC get Warband and some Picked Warband.

Massed Peltasts are not going to stand up to Romans, hoplites and pike in the open and one on one.

The light cavalry options for the Thracians are great. They are strong there.

[Karvon]

Thracians have gotten a lot more love and variety in FOG2 than they ever did in WRG and other ancient rulesets of the past. RBS has been open to revising lists if historical evidence is presented. Bear in mind ratings are devised based on historical contemporaries. You may want to take a look at TTG mod, as Paul's included more variety in lists and ratings. The final option is to make your own mod, adding and adjusting weapons, armor, types, and so on, to your taste.

[Paul59]

Thracians have gotten a lot more love and variety in FOG2 than they ever did in WRG and other ancient rulesets of the past. RBS has been open to revising lists if historical evidence is presented. Bear in mind ratings are devised based on historical contemporaries. You may want to take a look at TTG mod, as Paul's included more variety in lists and ratings. The final option is to make your own mod, adding and adjusting weapons, armor, types, and so on, to your taste.

I think the only changes I made to the vanilla Thracian lists were purely graphical. Over the years Vakarr has made many suggestions to RBS to improve the Thracian lists, and these had been added to the vanilla lists. I didn't see any need to change them further.

[vakarr]

Well two books written* plus numerous articles but no amount of historical evidence seems to matter. What matters is whether they are sufficiently Roman or not, or how often they fought Romans. So it's OK for Italian medium foot, for instance, to be superior. Massed Peltasts are not supposed to stand up to Romans, hoplites and pike in the open but they should be able to, in effect, shoot at them and run away. They should have a chance to wear down their opponents. Even the rhomphia armed troops aren't much of a challenge to Romans sometimes - in my latest tournament battle, Roman legionaries charged rhomphia men in a wood and the rhomphia men became fragmented. Thracians should decisively win the light troops encounter but when they are faced by superior or elite light troops (in the Macedonian army for instance) that is rather hard to do. The example there is Alexander's fight with the Triballi, where the Thracians won the first rounds of combat between the light troops but were driven back by the weight and drive of the pikemen.

* "The Gods of Battle: The Thracians at War" is still available from Pen & Sword but only in digital format.