Multiplayer map - Coral Sea and Kokoda 2.2

[FrancoisPhilidor]

(better version of: Port Moresby and Buna Gona)

DOWNLOAD:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14B4Qwh ... sp=sharing

INSTALLATION:
extract and place the whole folder into:
\Documents\My Games\Order of Battle - WW2\Scenarios

DESCRIPTION:
Objective:
Capture Port Moresby, Milne Bay, Buna, and Gona.


Features:
- In the first half, Japan has more deployment points.
- In the second half, the Allies will have more deployment points.

preview.png (333.21 KiB) Viewed 1668 times

[McAuslin]

Interesting scenario, thanks. Has anyone managed to win this as the Japanese?

[FrancoisPhilidor]

Interesting scenario, thanks. Has anyone managed to win this as the Japanese?

I have only tested this one once with Brenmusik, but since then I changed the map to have more space for the battle of the Coral Sea. So this new map is not even tested yet.

If you want, we can play

[McAuslin]

I'm finding it pretty tough as the Japanese so its mirroring history. Perhaps we can have a game when I've finished the current one I'm playing

[FrancoisPhilidor]

I'm finding it pretty tough as the Japanese so its mirroring history. Perhaps we can have a game when I've finished the current one I'm playing

Ok sure. What turn are you in now?
And what's the problem? The Japs should be a bit stronger at the beginning

[stevefprice]

I'm finding it pretty tough as the Japanese so its mirroring history. Perhaps we can have a game when I've finished the current one I'm playing

Ok sure. What turn are you in now?
And what's the problem? The Japs should be a bit stronger at the beginning

Agreed the Japanese should be stronger.

As per the Dunkirk/Britain game, large amounts of the coast line are mountainous leaving few beaches. The US need only mine the pass and other possible access roads and then mine the coastline. They have enough navy to hold off a concerted effort so the Japanese struggle to land. The navy CPS require Japs to spend on carriers because they cannot create a forward airbase so despite a paltry 5cp more the Jap offensive navy is less than the US one so LCs and transports get toasted every time.

I have managed to get paras to the 2 left most airfields, holding them will be an issue but it might work.

As it happens I also won Britain/Dunkirk using para by getting Dunkirk on turn 15.

My question is in testing how many games of this style were won by seaborne invasion?

I suggest the common flaw in the scenarios is hoping for a grand invasion style game but it's either a para drop or give up.

Might be worth looking at relative forces available for WW2 seaborne invasions:
Dieppe
Sicily
Torch
Anzio
D-Day

Work out the ratio of forces required to make a success. An alternative might be to limit the number of engineers as that stops the 'mine every beach' hex silliness. A real thing but game mechanics prevent a landing. Then give the attacking force more CP, RP and construction units so they can create forward airbases.

[FrancoisPhilidor]

I'm finding it pretty tough as the Japanese so its mirroring history. Perhaps we can have a game when I've finished the current one I'm playing

Ok sure. What turn are you in now?
And what's the problem? The Japs should be a bit stronger at the beginning

Agreed the Japanese should be stronger.

As per the Dunkirk/Britain game, large amounts of the coast line are mountainous leaving few beaches. The US need only mine the pass and other possible access roads and then mine the coastline. They have enough navy to hold off a concerted effort so the Japanese struggle to land. The navy CPS require Japs to spend on carriers because they cannot create a forward airbase so despite a paltry 5cp more the Jap offensive navy is less than the US one so LCs and transports get toasted every time.

I have managed to get paras to the 2 left most airfields, holding them will be an issue but it might work.

As it happens I also won Britain/Dunkirk using para by getting Dunkirk on turn 15.

My question is in testing how many games of this style were won by seaborne invasion?

I suggest the common flaw in the scenarios is hoping for a grand invasion style game but it's either a para drop or give up.

Might be worth looking at relative forces available for WW2 seaborne invasions:
Dieppe
Sicily
Torch
Anzio
D-Day

Work out the ratio of forces required to make a success. An alternative might be to limit the number of engineers as that stops the 'mine every beach' hex silliness. A real thing but game mechanics prevent a landing. Then give the attacking force more CP, RP and construction units so they can create forward airbases.

I wasn't able to play through it that fast yet. I don't have enough fast opponents
How were you able to test it so fast??

And yes, another guy also found the same in the Dunkirk map. Mines are a problem. In my next version I limit the max number of mines deployed in Britain, just like fighters and AA units. If the players deploy too many, they lose.

It is not desired that you paradrop onto Dunkirk. The defender should have paid more attention
I don't want the game to end at Dunkirk or Paris. It's just supposed to be the prelude.

But I have given Germany two more bombers, so they have enough to bomb ships as well as airfields at the same time.


As for this map, Coral Sea, is Japan really that weak? My desired outcome is basically the historical one. Japan almost captures Milne Bay and Port Moresby, but then gets pushed back. But if Japan is good enough, it should also be able to win.
So you are saying that's impossible right now? What if they win the battle of the Coral Sea and control the sea?

I haven't even played it yet. Do you want to try with me?

[FrancoisPhilidor]

In version 2.1:

- no player can deploy any landmines
- Japan has got 25 extra naval CP and 700 more initial RP
- increased total turn number to 140, so that the allies have more time to push them back all the way to Buna Gona

[McAuslin]

Think we are about turn 65 with the new version.
I'll post a full report when its over but so far the Japs won the Battle of the Coral Sea, sank every US ship and took the land objective; I think that was around turn 40.
So the Japs went round the headland towards Port Moresby and there was....another huge US fleet as big as the first (my oppo did spend up on the force that he lost at Coral Sea so this isn't him hoarding RPs and CPs).
I dont think(?) the Japs have enough RP to replace naval losses (and buy land and air) that fast but I may be wrong.
And it may be that US naval CP should be limited more after Coral Sea...I'll have a look and see what naval assets were available to the allies historically and where they were.
On land the US are winning, pop even a spent and out of supply US unit on the Jap line of supply on the Kakoda Trail and the Japs are in big trouble fast. Even with a couple of units to act as patrols/rear guards its very difficult to keep the trail open (this is the second time this has happened).
I expect its hard wired into the game that any unit can cut supply? Seems a bit silly that one who is shot to bits and out of its own supply can create such havoc tho.....
That said this is a very enjoyable and challenging scenario. Nice one.

[FrancoisPhilidor]

Think we are about turn 65 with the new version.
I'll post a full report when its over but so far the Japs won the Battle of the Coral Sea, sank every US ship and took the land objective; I think that was around turn 40.
So the Japs went round the headland towards Port Moresby and there was....another huge US fleet as big as the first (my oppo did spend up on the force that he lost at Coral Sea so this isn't him hoarding RPs and CPs).
I dont think(?) the Japs have enough RP to replace naval losses (and buy land and air) that fast but I may be wrong.
And it may be that US naval CP should be limited more after Coral Sea...I'll have a look and see what naval assets were available to the allies historically and where they were.
On land the US are winning, pop even a spent and out of supply US unit on the Jap line of supply on the Kakoda Trail and the Japs are in big trouble fast. Even with a couple of units to act as patrols/rear guards its very difficult to keep the trail open (this is the second time this has happened).
I expect its hard wired into the game that any unit can cut supply? Seems a bit silly that one who is shot to bits and out of its own supply can create such havoc tho.....
That said this is a very enjoyable and challenging scenario. Nice one.

Thanks!
Believe it or not but I haven't played it yet haha.
Happy for any balance suggestions.

If you don't want units to cross the mountains and cut the trail, I can put escarpments in the middle of the mountain range, or give some area to the neutral AI player where nobody can cross the territory. But I think there are already so many mountains that it will take any unit attempting to cross many turns or not? Andparatroopers can always cut the trail. But I can limit the number of paratroopers to.... 5 per side?

As for the second fleet, in version 2.1 on turn 60 the allies get a lot of resources. That's why they were able to afford a second fleet on turn 65?

My idea was this:
The Japs have more RPs until turn 60 to take Port Moresby and Milne Bay.
If they don't, the allies get a lot of reinforcements by turn 60, and then they have until turn 140 to push the Japs back to Kokoda, retake Milne Bay, and then take Buna Gona.

Also please let me know if the turn numbers seem right. This is sth impossible for me to predict before playing it. Maybe I have to postpone the allied reinforcements until turn 70, and extend the total game time until turn 160?
The allies will need a little more than half of the total time, because they need to push the Japs back to the middle first before advancing onto their territory.

[McAuslin]

Kakoda thoughts after game 3

Now played as Japs 3 consecutive times against the same opponent; never won as the Japanese.
We are pretty evenly matched players.
The last game was the most educational played with the no land mines option.
No land mines seems to work as it gives a more open game.
I think there may be too many turns, but US boost should arrive proportionally with reduced turns.

We stopped at turn 85 as it was clear that the allies would eventually win even though the US fleet was totally destroyed at the first Battle of the Coral Sea around turn 40.
The US was able to field another big fleet a mere 25 turns later (a build up that started as the Japs were sinking the first fleet).
The points boost (RPs and CPs) allowed the US to rearm in no time and utterly smash the Japs (who cannot match that level of rearmament) at the 2nd Battle of the Coral Sea which artificially ended on turn 85.
We think this needs some hefty revision. Did the US have such big naval reinforcements historically?

The Kokoda trail is a nightmare for the Japs as it is so easily cut causing immediate loss of supply. However this may mirror history rather well as historically the Japs carried very little supplies assuming that they could capture their enemies and they paid dearly when they couldn't win quickly.
Historically the Japanese got within sight of Port Moresby before their advance was halted as they had outrun their supply line. This was 21st July-26th September, 67 turns on the OOB clock but my opponent had cut the road more than once before turn 67. It doesn’t matter if it takes a unit 5 or 10 turns to cross the jungle/mountains to hit and cut the trail, in a game with so many turns it’s irrelevant.

Paras; there were none in the campaign, don’t allow them to be bought please.

No Spitfires please. They were not in the historical campaign and they outclass Zeros. Stick to the Wildcat, Dauntless and Devatator.

Some thoughts that may make it a more even game (if that’s what you are aiming for);
make the vast majority of US fleet a historical pre selected core at the start of the game, give the US player limited ability to expand it and do not allow Naval CPs to be regained from losses it suffers until at least the points boost mid way through the game when they should be increased gradually per turn. Otherwise getting to the Port Moresby area by sea is pretty unlikely for the Japs post winning in the Coral Sea.
Probably do some similar with the Jap fleet with a bit more leeway on expansion and naval CPs up the the US points boost.

In essence should the US have the facility to conjure another major fleet 25 turns after its original warships sit at the bottom of the Coral Sea?
After Coral Sea, where the entire US fleet was lost, I faced 2 Battleships, 7 Heavy Cruisers, 9+ Destroyers and at least 1 Carrier on the US points boost 25 turns later. He’d been buying vessels as I sank them. He won Second Coral Sea, sank the Japanese navy and retook Milne Bay and the airfield.

We think the game needs a little more balance.
It’s not far off (with the caveat of the points above) and we don’t know what your overall intention for the game is. If it’s a historical result you are not far off, if it’s more of a game then a few adjustments are needed.

However it was a very enjoyable game.

I have the strengths, losses, COs and RPs for both sides at turn 85 if you need them.

[FrancoisPhilidor]

Kakoda thoughts after game 3

Now played as Japs 3 consecutive times against the same opponent; never won as the Japanese.
We are pretty evenly matched players.
The last game was the most educational played with the no land mines option.
No land mines seems to work as it gives a more open game.
I think there may be too many turns, but US boost should arrive proportionally with reduced turns.

We stopped at turn 85 as it was clear that the allies would eventually win even though the US fleet was totally destroyed at the first Battle of the Coral Sea around turn 40.
The US was able to field another big fleet a mere 25 turns later (a build up that started as the Japs were sinking the first fleet).
The points boost (RPs and CPs) allowed the US to rearm in no time and utterly smash the Japs (who cannot match that level of rearmament) at the 2nd Battle of the Coral Sea which artificially ended on turn 85.
We think this needs some hefty revision. Did the US have such big naval reinforcements historically?

The Kokoda trail is a nightmare for the Japs as it is so easily cut causing immediate loss of supply. However this may mirror history rather well as historically the Japs carried very little supplies assuming that they could capture their enemies and they paid dearly when they couldn't win quickly.
Historically the Japanese got within sight of Port Moresby before their advance was halted as they had outrun their supply line. This was 21st July-26th September, 67 turns on the OOB clock but my opponent had cut the road more than once before turn 67. It doesn’t matter if it takes a unit 5 or 10 turns to cross the jungle/mountains to hit and cut the trail, in a game with so many turns it’s irrelevant.

Paras; there were none in the campaign, don’t allow them to be bought please.

No Spitfires please. They were not in the historical campaign and they outclass Zeros. Stick to the Wildcat, Dauntless and Devatator.

Some thoughts that may make it a more even game (if that’s what you are aiming for);
make the vast majority of US fleet a historical pre selected core at the start of the game, give the US player limited ability to expand it and do not allow Naval CPs to be regained from losses it suffers until at least the points boost mid way through the game when they should be increased gradually per turn. Otherwise getting to the Port Moresby area by sea is pretty unlikely for the Japs post winning in the Coral Sea.
Probably do some similar with the Jap fleet with a bit more leeway on expansion and naval CPs up the the US points boost.

In essence should the US have the facility to conjure another major fleet 25 turns after its original warships sit at the bottom of the Coral Sea?
After Coral Sea, where the entire US fleet was lost, I faced 2 Battleships, 7 Heavy Cruisers, 9+ Destroyers and at least 1 Carrier on the US points boost 25 turns later. He’d been buying vessels as I sank them. He won Second Coral Sea, sank the Japanese navy and retook Milne Bay and the airfield.

We think the game needs a little more balance.
It’s not far off (with the caveat of the points above) and we don’t know what your overall intention for the game is. If it’s a historical result you are not far off, if it’s more of a game then a few adjustments are needed.

However it was a very enjoyable game.

I have the strengths, losses, COs and RPs for both sides at turn 85 if you need them.

Hey thanks for the details. Keeping this much track of everything, I think you would be a good scenario designer yourself. Ever tried?

Yes the data for turn 85 would be interesting to see, please.


1
I'm going to make a large part of the Owen Stanley Mountains impassable.

2
I'm going to tell players not to deploy any paratroopers at all. For both sides.

3
Spitfire.. well it's part of the Australian roster isn't it? I could give all air CP to the USA. Then Australia wouldn't have any planes? Or is it the silver US spitfire?

4
So the problem with the fleets is Japan cannot reach Port Moresby at all before the USA has new ships right?
THe thing is, I want the USA to be able to push back later on.
The idea of this scenario was that Japan has more RP at the beginning, and the allies later on.
I could give just Australia RP on turn 60, so they can push back on the Kokoda trail, and the USA will get RP a bit later, so it can feel like Japan can almost get to Port Moresby by sea, but then gets pushed back?

But then I would have to make the scenario even longer, not shorter? So that the allies have enough time to reach Buna Gona by sea after winning at Port Moresby.

ANd then I would give Australia a little less RP, so that they can start pushing back after turn 60, but more slowly?

On which turn should the USA get new RP? Turn 70 maybe?

And Australia can still get RP on turn 60? If we disable paratroopers, mines, and make most of the mountains impassable, how far will Japan have got by turn 60?

5
As for preselected fleets, I have done that only once, in my Midway map, to have a really balanced historical feel. But normally I prefer to give players the choice what to recruit, so that every game is different. Midway is also just the one battle with no reinforcements, unlike all my other maps. Do you think it's necessary to preselect the fleets here?




Overall I thought this map should be a bit more challenging for Japan than for the allies, but not impossible to win. So let's say in 80% of cases the allies should win, but the defense of Port Moresby should always feel like a last-ditch struggle. It should never be too easy.
So if you could help me rebalance it that way

[McAuslin]

Sorry for the delay in reply
No, not a vid game scenario designer, done more than i can remember for tabletop games though.
I think your 80/20 chance of the Japs winning is good, just needs a tad more balancing.
Heres the end data from our last game:

Turn 86
Japanese
RPs 170
Land CP 17
Naval CP 91
Air CP 18

Remaining
1 cruiser
4 destroyers
1 gunboat
1 supply ship

10 infantry
3 Paras
5 tanks
1 at gun
1 artillery

4 zeros
1 a5m4
1 torpedo bomber
2 recce aircraft

Lost Milne Bay
Hold Gona and Buna
No chance of Port Moresby

Lost
2 battleships
9 cruisers
14 destroyers
2 carriers
1 gunboat
2 supply ships
7 foot
1 ac
3 aa
1 at
2 zeros
2 torpedo bombers
2 tactical bombers

Allies
Australians
2374 RPs but no air/land/sea CPs left
Infantry - 12
Engineers - 3
Tanks - 3
A/T - 1
A/A - 3
Spitfires - 4

US
321 RPs
Unspent CPs - 17 Land, 35 Sea and 3 Air
Recce a/c - 2
Fighters - 3 Wildcats, 1 Lightening
Bombers - 4 Dauntless, 3 Havoc
Torpedo Bombers - 1
Destroyers - 11
Cruisers - 9
Battleship - 1
Aircraft Carriers - 2 x CV, 1 x CVE
Supply Ships - 2
Support ship - 1
Paras - 1
Marines - 1
Marine Raider - 1
Infantry - 4
Tanks - 2
A/A - 1

[FrancoisPhilidor]

Sorry for the delay in reply
No, not a vid game scenario designer, done more than i can remember for tabletop games though.
I think your 80/20 chance of the Japs winning is good, just needs a tad more balancing.
Heres the end data from our last game:

Turn 86
Japanese
RPs 170
Land CP 17
Naval CP 91
Air CP 18

Remaining
1 cruiser
4 destroyers
1 gunboat
1 supply ship

10 infantry
3 Paras
5 tanks
1 at gun
1 artillery

4 zeros
1 a5m4
1 torpedo bomber
2 recce aircraft

Lost Milne Bay
Hold Gona and Buna
No chance of Port Moresby

Lost
2 battleships
9 cruisers
14 destroyers
2 carriers
1 gunboat
2 supply ships
7 foot
1 ac
3 aa
1 at
2 zeros
2 torpedo bombers
2 tactical bombers

Allies
Australians
2374 RPs but no air/land/sea CPs left
Infantry - 12
Engineers - 3
Tanks - 3
A/T - 1
A/A - 3
Spitfires - 4

US
321 RPs
Unspent CPs - 17 Land, 35 Sea and 3 Air
Recce a/c - 2
Fighters - 3 Wildcats, 1 Lightening
Bombers - 4 Dauntless, 3 Havoc
Torpedo Bombers - 1
Destroyers - 11
Cruisers - 9
Battleship - 1
Aircraft Carriers - 2 x CV, 1 x CVE
Supply Ships - 2
Support ship - 1
Paras - 1
Marines - 1
Marine Raider - 1
Infantry - 4
Tanks - 2
A/A - 1

Ok nice thanks a lot.
And how far was Japan able to get around turn 60 (or 85, if you don't remember turn 60)?
How far were they on the Kokoda trail and how far were they by sea?

[FrancoisPhilidor]

In version 2.2

- restricted the use of mines and paratroopers
- made parts of the Owen Stanley Range impassable
- gave all air CP only to the USA
- postponed most allied reinforcements until turn 80

Thanks to McAuslin for testing

[McAuslin]

By 60 the Japs had won the battle of the Coral Sea and the US Navy was sunk. I think they were just about to take the objective.
On the Kokoda trail they were flanked in the hills to the south of the trail in the final section. To their front the allies had moved up armour blocking progress, meanwhile they were sneaking units through the mountains to the far left of this trail section.

[FrancoisPhilidor]

By 60 the Japs had won the battle of the Coral Sea and the US Navy was sunk. I think they were just about to take the objective.
On the Kokoda trail they were flanked in the hills to the south of the trail in the final section. To their front the allies had moved up armour blocking progress, meanwhile they were sneaking units through the mountains to the far left of this trail section.

Thanks, so now Australia gets extra resources by turn 60, and the big US reinforcements come at turn 80. I hope it will play out better this time.

So the allies "moved armour up on the Kokoda Trail"? I see, you complain about spitfires in the Pacific, but are ok with tanks on the Kokoda Trail hehe?

[McAuslin]

Both the Japs and Allied deployed armour on the Kakoda Trail in your scenario.
Not sure how you make a road impassable to anything but infantry but I'm up for that.
There were no Spits in the historical Kakoda campaign and i wasn't complaining; just pointing it out..

[FrancoisPhilidor]

Both the Japs and Allied deployed armour on the Kakoda Trail in your scenario.
Not sure how you make a road impassable to anything but infantry but I'm up for that.
There were no Spits in the historical Kakoda campaign and i wasn't complaining; just pointing it out..

Yeah sure, I was just joking, sorry

I could set another limit saying that there are no tanks allowed within 25 hexes of Kokoda or sth like that, but I guess it's not that important? The more rules I have, the more somebody is likely to forget and players will hate me when the game suddenly ends haha. I think tanks on Kokoda are not game breaking? Unlike mines or paratroopers