Heavy Impact Foot - Tournament Dogs

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:45 pm

There are a lot of armies that I'm interested in from a historical basis, but since they have a core of heavy foot, average, protected, impact foot, swordsmen, it seems that they are completely uncompetitive in an open tournament. Most others must agree since these types of armies are rarely seen in a tournament. Does that mean classic armies like Gauls, Saxons, Franks, and Ancient Germans are complete dogs on the tournament circuit, and only suitable for scenario based games? Or is it possible to make these guys competitive against a wider variety of opponents? I know that people talk about things like outnumbering, big battle groups, rear support, overlaps, and such - but to me, this just does not seem to be enough to make barbarian foot type armies competitive. Is their impact effectiveness maybe undervalued? I know of other rules that make these kind of guys impetuous, with major advantages when charging, but FoG doesn't make that as powerful. I don't have any real disagreement with how FoG models this, and I feel the games I have played with these troops have an authentic historic feel, but on the other hand I fear that a day may soon arrive where we will almost never see such armies in a non-theme tournament.

So...any thoughts on how to play these guys successfully in an open tournament? And will we see such armies vanish from the tournament circuit - and is that a cause for concern?

BTW - I know it is possible to get an occasional victory with such armies - I recently got a hard fought win using Ancient Germans against Principate Romans, but my concern is that most players will eventually not choose to bring heavy foot barbarians to tournaments at all in the future, narrowing the field to a more limited number of army choices.

Peter C

benos · Post by **benos** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:55 pm

I think , with my limited experience, that it depends on the list. mono-type lists do badly against some opponents no matter the rule system, and correctly in my opinion.
the saxons, franks and Germans have pretty much only heavy impact foot, so will struggle against anyone with a counter to that.
the Gauls look a little better to me, with a fair amount of ok cavalry, they at least have a chance, especially against an opponent who evades a lot.
Romans with thier armoured, superior drilled heavy impact foot are tough to break through, and have some supports to deal with opponents who can avoid fighting your best troops.

I understand that impact foot works better in the biblical era, with less armoured troops around.
the main downside i suspect is manouverability , they are very much an unsubtle line up and charge army, this makes them prone to being out manouvered, and to an extent boring (i would struggle to paint nothing but impact foot, and nothing else without getting bored) so players look towards other more dynamic armies

Ben

paulburton · Post by **paulburton** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:56 pm

I have palyed around with variants of the Barbarian Warband army (Ancient Spanish - Sertorius option and Foederate Roman). Admittedly thes have regular supports in small Battle Groups which suits my tactic of the double line. Line 1 should kill a base from a BG which means that the second line start with a slight edge over Romans or pikes.

Impact Foot are even at Impact with most cavalry and only lose out to more heavily armoured horsemen. These also cost at least twice as much. You need support and have a general with the unit to give the best possible chance of making the Cohesion Test. Once the Cavalry break off at the end of melee you can follow up and gradually push them back.

If you have a few skirmishers out in front you might also add a few cohesion tests as the mounted approach.

Against foot you will be at least evens at impact and if you win it is -1 to the CT so you have a good chance (though yesterday I had two BGs of Spanish charging Thracians in the front and a unit of Roman Agyraspides in the flank + and ++ POA and lost both, and there was a general fighting the thracians. WIn those and the Seleucid army would be on its way to destruction.). The way I lose with these is the support troops getting picked off meaning the second line don't get to fight so the Impact foot need to advance quickly to contact. I am going to try out an all MF version of the Spanish rather than the Celtiberian Mercenaries which I have been using. Dropping the Legionaries will be hard but they rarely get to fight so may be a waste.

I think the barbarians have a chance, though manouvre is favoured by many players as you can get out of trouble. Maybe work up to Franks via Foederate Roman (which you can always convert to Dominate) though another thread suggested that Merovingian Franks are pretty good against shooty cavalry armies (and can use Frankish and Late Roman figures).

I think there are options which are worth looking at.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:21 pm

If anything this type of army is better in an open than a themed tournament. In period there will be plenty of nasty Romans so you could be in for a rough ride. In open comps the key is to use big BGs of warriors as punchbags to take the enemy blows while winning the game elsewhere. This type of army definitely needs a good chunk of mounted to win games but the warriros at 7 points a base are decent enough troops.

I have won a tournament with Slave Revolt which is very much an impact foot army but it does have a proportion of armoured types and als the nice cheap rear support from average mob as well as loads of terrain troops again in the form of the mob. It doesn't however have many cavalry so it is a bit of a challenge to do well with.

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Well, since I have local friends dipping their toes into the water of FoG a bit with 25mm armies (using the newly available plastics) of Ancient Germans and Romans, I've been rebasing some of my 25mm lead to give them opponents. I'm putting together an Ancient British army and a Spanish one, but neither will be classic barbarian heavy foot forces, although they do have a core of impact foot. The Ancient British have a large chariot wing, a ton of slingers, and all medium impact foot. The Ancient Spanish are using the Sertorius option, and then all medium foot for the core units. These lists are not championship quality, I'm sure, but I think they can be competitive against a wide variety of armies. For my friend who will be running Ancient Germans, I've recommended an ally of medium foot, Sarmatian lancers, and the Batavian revolt option to get a bunch of deserting Roman auxiliaries.

So I know that barbarian armies can be competitive, if not world-beaters, but my concern is with armies like Visigoths and Gauls. Will we see these kind of guys in open tournaments? And if not, is that of any concern really?

Peter C

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:27 am

I'm of the opinion that these guys can do OK in an Open tournament....in an open tournament there are much less Romans around. These guys fight out of period knights as well as the armoured guys, and do pretty well against shooty cav if in big battlegroups. I never thought my gauls where outmatched in the open tournament I played, although my skill level seemed to be

They will do terribly in a theme tournament where they have to fight legions as they will be speed bumped.

Ian

richnz · Post by **richnz** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:49 am

Armies that get either a decent amount of superiors (e.g Gauls) or have nice support troops (e.g Ancient British) are quite handy.

The ones with all average impact foot are rubbish. Try using them and you'll see. They don't even really work against Romans, as superior armoured skilled swordsmen will cut you to ribbons. IMO the army lists need to allow some superior options for armies such as Early German. Seems a bit odd that Gauls can get either elite soldurii or superior gaesati (up to 24 of them), while no superior Chatti or similar in the Early Germans.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:48 am

I took Merovingians to the last tournament and they did well - a mix of heavy impact foot, light spear caavlry and light horse. Seems to do OK to me. More importantly I had fun games with them.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:33 pm

I used superior Galatians v Romans and found you are paying 9 pts per dead base instead of 7. They cannot manouvere like those 4 man bg Romans, and after rolling evens at impact they are on 5s v Roman 3s in melee. I even tried the army against a Hopilite army, and found unless you disrupt the Greeks in impact they will chew you up in melee too.

The army went back into the box.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:40 pm

Some players have done well wit these troop types but they do seem to have more con's than pro's.

paulburton · Post by **paulburton** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:34 pm

I ran the spanish again against a Late Republican Roman. The front line of Undrilled MF did some damage but the nasty legions (Superior, Armoured, Skille Sword) were able to cut through the second line. Some of these were disrupted as I had not really read the auto break rule but it wouldn't have made a difference. One BG was reduced to 2 but any disruption could be bolstered before the second line troops could get stuck in (or after as even without support they had no real problems).

The two levels of disadvantage in melee were just too much to sustain any damage done in the impact phase. My opponent recond I would have done better to use numbers to work the flanks more.

So, the two line concept is deemed a failure without something reasonably robust for the front line. I think I will be going back to the Romans (Late Republic or Early Principate), though the Sertorian might work as a swarm army with all the MF Drilled and more light troops.

Still have not got the hang of light horse - keep getting caught on evades and beaten in the fights.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:46 pm

I have found with Lh the best thing to do is scoot forward and sit just outside of the move range from foot, that way they cannot charge you, but don't get to double move. Great at delaying them, especially if you can get the lh to slow down 2 bg foot.

At the IWF I tried to shoot down hf with a line of lh b, and found that it took so long to even get enough to cause them to test, let alone fail a test it wasn't worth the effort.

JEFFEDBOB · Post by **JEFFEDBOB** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:53 am

Hi,
I have early germans and I think that open tournament is the best chance for them to win. In period even the gauls and the average
legionaries beat them up.
Thanks Jeff

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:50 am

I rather fancy HF Impact at the moment. They are good all around troops and really only suffer to:
terrain
Skilled Sword Impact foot.

I think a lot of armies would be improved with 1-2 internal BG of HF Imp

My Carolingians and Lombards love their saxon allies.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:56 am

paulburton wrote:... though the Sertorian might work as a swarm army with all the MF Drilled and more light troops.

Still have not got the hang of light horse - keep getting caught on evades and beaten in the fights.

The Sertorian Swarm is fun to try but it usually comes down to the centre (Celtiberian HF) delaying and holding long enough for the flanky swarms to make it around. Those little 4 paks of drilled MF turn nicely, but the trick in FoG seems to be getting a flank to crumble fast enough. It takes you 3 or 4 turns at least for the flank dudes to get there, then the enemy can toss something in the way and hang you up for at least another 3 or 4 turns. By then, the centre is hit and the Celts with either hold or go down fast.

Makes for a fun game every time. But we have rarely, if ever, seen a flank swarm work with MF.

Dan T.

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:29 am

hazelbark wrote:I rather fancy HF Impact at the moment. They are good all around troops and really only suffer to:
terrain
Skilled Sword Impact foot.

... and anything armoured as well, surely??

hazelbark wrote: think a lot of armies would be improved with 1-2 internal BG of HF Imp

... if you could add them for free, maybe. But 2 unmaneuverable HF units of 8-12 at at 7 points a base is 112 points at the lowest. With 140-185 points worth of generals, that's nearly 1/6th of your APs !!

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:12 pm

hazelbark wrote:My Carolingians and Lombards love their saxon allies.

Unless they get disrupted by a bunch of outmatched Foederate Romans, and then have their general die on a lucky kill roll. Right, Dan?

Peter C

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:19 pm

Blathergut wrote:
paulburton wrote:The Sertorian Swarm is fun to try but it usually comes down to the centre (Celtiberian HF) delaying and holding long enough for the flanky swarms to make it around. Those little 4 paks of drilled MF turn nicely, but the trick in FoG seems to be getting a flank to crumble fast enough. It takes you 3 or 4 turns at least for the flank dudes to get there, then the enemy can toss something in the way and hang you up for at least another 3 or 4 turns. By then, the centre is hit and the Celts with either hold or go down fast.

I keep having the same problem with my Dominate Roman Swarm. I'm playing with the fully morally bankrupt version lately, and although the army is very flexible, and I'm having some success with it, it has not yet been as easy to win with as some other armies I've played (of course, maybe that can be chalked up to lack of player skill

). Anyway, the armored auxilia can stand up a bit to most other troop types, but if they are in the open, the cohesion tests are a killer. They really do need to get the flank attacks to win, and if you are outmanned on the flanks by enemy cavalry (which my auxilia would prefer not to face), then it is difficult to turn a flank before getting contacted by troops you would rather not fight frontally. Oh well...I guess I just need a lot more practice.

Peter C

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:12 am

madaxeman wrote:
hazelbark wrote:I rather fancy HF Impact at the moment. They are good all around troops and really only suffer to:
terrain
Skilled Sword Impact foot.
... and anything armoured as well, surely??

Not anything. Things with nearly the same number of bases.

One of their advantages is BG size. 4 bases of Amrd Sup Bw/sw cv are not sufficient

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:25 am

pcelella wrote:
Blathergut wrote:
paulburton wrote:The Sertorian Swarm is fun to try but it usually comes down to the centre (Celtiberian HF) delaying and holding long enough for the flanky swarms to make it around. Those little 4 paks of drilled MF turn nicely, but the trick in FoG seems to be getting a flank to crumble fast enough. It takes you 3 or 4 turns at least for the flank dudes to get there, then the enemy can toss something in the way and hang you up for at least another 3 or 4 turns. By then, the centre is hit and the Celts with either hold or go down fast.
I keep having the same problem with my Dominate Roman Swarm. I'm playing with the fully morally bankrupt version lately, and although the army is very flexible, and I'm having some success with it, it has not yet been as easy to win with as some other armies I've played (of course, maybe that can be chalked up to lack of player skill ). Anyway, the armored auxilia can stand up a bit to most other troop types, but if they are in the open, the cohesion tests are a killer. They really do need to get the flank attacks to win, and if you are outmanned on the flanks by enemy cavalry (which my auxilia would prefer not to face), then it is difficult to turn a flank before getting contacted by troops you would rather not fight frontally. Oh well...I guess I just need a lot more practice.

Peter C

Ya...that illusive centre-will-hold-until...hope! Maybe swarms of LF to be hit and take a beating...just skirmishing doesn't delay the pikes or cataphracts long enough!