Conforming big units in melee

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:42 am

Polkovnik wrote:Can you justify those answers from the rules. Personally I would say the conform cannot take place in any of these cases if it means contacting a new BG (other than only as an overlap) because of the rule (page 75, Moving into contact):
" Battle groups can only move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase , but only to join
an existing melee in an overlap position. "

There is an errata to the sentence from p. 75 you cite. It should read: “Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position only.”

IMO since conforming is part of the manoevre phase this makes it clear that contacting a new enemy by conforming is not permitted.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:41 am

The recent comments in this thread combined with someone pointing out the diagram on P87 in another thread has gotten me thinking. Initially I thought I might be wrong but on rereading the section I stand by my position.

The conform rules state that BGs in contact must "pivot and/or slide by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact"

It also states that "The BG must end its conform in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted."

In our example the end base of the angled charging BG pivots and slides to line up. The remaining bases pivot slide and step forwards. There is no reason from that wording to prevent additional bases being pulled in.

There is wording to prevent contact with an enemy base that is in front of the main line of enemy troops as any step forward must end up level with the nearest file in contact. You cannot for the same reason contact enemy that are behind the main line of troops.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:09 am

hammy wrote:It also states that "The BG must end its conform in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted."

Yes but this is referring to additional bases from the BG that has already been contacted. It seems clear to me that a new BG cannot be contacted in the manoeuvre phase (except as an overlap) so the conform cannot take place if it would contact a new BG.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:11 am

Polkovnik wrote:
hammy wrote:It also states that "The BG must end its conform in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted."
Yes but this is referring to additional bases from the BG that has already been contacted. It seems clear to me that a new BG cannot be contacted in the manoeuvre phase (except as an overlap) so the conform cannot take place if it would contact a new BG.

I think you are reading something into the rule that is not there.

Where does it say you cannot contact additional BGs when you conform? All it says is "This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted"

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:35 am

hammy wrote:
Polkovnik wrote:
hammy wrote:It also states that "The BG must end its conform in a normal formation, except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with the enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted."
Yes but this is referring to additional bases from the BG that has already been contacted. It seems clear to me that a new BG cannot be contacted in the manoeuvre phase (except as an overlap) so the conform cannot take place if it would contact a new BG.
I think you are reading something into the rule that is not there.

Where does it say you cannot contact additional BGs when you conform? All it says is "This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted"

“Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position only.”

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:41 am

Polkovnik wrote:
“Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position only.”

I think the natural reading of that is movement conducted in the "normal moves" part of the manoeuvre phase, however useful it may be in resolving the issue.

Of course if Conforming is actually a move ...

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:48 am

Well we have an errata for contacting new BGs by expansion so do we need one for conforming also ?

If you allow conforming into a previously uncontacted BG (even if it only happens when the BGs are lined up) it opens up the possibilty of cheese (hence the whole point of this thread) and issues about whether skirmishers get to evade, etc.

graym · Post by **graym** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:58 am

Good thing this was all so well understood.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:36 am

Polkovnik wrote:Well we have an errata for contacting new BGs by expansion so do we need one for conforming also ?

If you allow conforming into a previously uncontacted BG (even if it only happens when the BGs are lined up) it opens up the possibilty of cheese (hence the whole point of this thread) and issues about whether skirmishers get to evade, etc.

There is IIRC an FAQ entry stating that contacting new BGs by expansion is OK and that skirmishers so contacted can't evade.

It is trivially simple for the player being conformed to to prevent skirmishers being so contacted, I really don't see any cheese here at all.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:40 am

hammy wrote:
Polkovnik wrote:Well we have an errata for contacting new BGs by expansion so do we need one for conforming also ?

If you allow conforming into a previously uncontacted BG (even if it only happens when the BGs are lined up) it opens up the possibilty of cheese (hence the whole point of this thread) and issues about whether skirmishers get to evade, etc.
There is IIRC an FAQ entry stating that contacting new BGs by expansion is OK and that skirmishers so contacted can't evade.

Yes, I know. I quoted it earlier on this thread. And that's my point - we have an FAQ entry about contacting new BGs by expansion so surely we also need one about contacting new BGs by conforming.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:46 am

hammy wrote:It is trivially simple for the player being conformed to to prevent skirmishers being so contacted, I really don't see any cheese here at all.

Whether it's deliberate cheese or not, it seems very wrong that :
- if a battleline including skirmishers is charged and the skirmishers are contacted in the charge, they get to evade, but
- if the battleline is charged at an angle, the skirmishers can be contacted without a chance to evade
Which is I think what you are saying.

I think the only time skirmishers should not get to evade is when they have voluntarily moved into an overlap position in an existing melee (which is the point covered in the FAQ).