Suggestion: Formable Persia

[Mordkalb]

The Grand Campaign starts in the final stage of the Iranian Intermezzo, with the Buyids being trampled under the Seljuk onslaught. Before that, the Buyids and other native Iranian polities did imitate many Sassanid practices and governance, despite being Muslim rather than Zoroastrian. Some even used the ancient title of Shahanshah.

Despite Seljuk dominion, the idea of Persia/Iran remained very much alive during the game's timeframe and I think it would be appropriate to have Persia as a formable nation. As for conditions, I think owning Isfahan and 20 regions is reasonable, but am open to other suggestions.

[jimwinsor]

This was considered, but the problem here is that there were a lot of factions in this time frame that did indeed satisfy the Isfahan + 20 conditions (Seljuqs, Ilkhanate, Khwarezm, Timurids, etc) yet none of them historically bothered to call themselves Persia.

[Mordkalb]

This was considered, but the problem here is that there were a lot of factions in this time frame that did indeed satisfy the Isfahan + 20 conditions (Seljuqs, Ilkhanate, Khwarezm, Timurids, etc) yet none of them historically bothered to call themselves Persia.

That is true, but none of them were Persian in origin. The Seljuqs and Khwarezm were heavily Persianized, but their military ruling classes were Turkic and took great care to use this ethnic identity to set themselves apart from the masses. The Ilkhanate was Mongol, and the Timurids were Uzbeks with heavy Mongol and Islamic influences. Those polities calling themselves Persia would be about as absurd as Wilhelm I claiming the title of King of France in Versailles 1871 instead of German Emperor.

Historically speaking, the various polities ruling Greater Persia before the Islamic conquest did not call themselves "The Persian Empire" - this is merely a historiographical convention, just like the Byzantines did not call themselves "The Byzantine Empire" - but used the title of Shahanshah to signify continuity with the Achaemenids and claim the Persian legacy. The Buyids did do that, but they are on their way out at game start and no longer meet the proposed conditions.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to suggest that any native Persian polity (unlike the previously listed dynasties established by Central Asian conquerors) with the military and territorial power necessary would claim the Persian legacy through the Shahanshah title, which in game would be best represented through (re)forming Persia and would kindly ask you to reconsider the decision to leave this possibility out of the game. Thank you for your time and effort!

[jimwinsor]

It is the way of things that realm formation is limited to certain factions, yes. Only certain French factions can form France, for example.

So who would qualify? The Buyids I suppose. Daylamites like the Baduspanids and Bavanids? Annazids (although they were more Kurdish)? Perhaps others?

[Mordkalb]

So who would qualify?

All factions the game currently considers to be of Persian culture should be able to form Persia, just like all Anglo-Saxons (and Normandy) can form England. Now, which factions should be of Persian culture is a different debate that can be opened, but perhaps in a separate thread.

[jimwinsor]

It couldn't be that simple, I'm afraid... For example, Khwarezm and Aq Qoyunlu are considered Persian in the game, because of many generations of prior Persianization. And they both could have formed Persia but didn't.

[Surt]

So the next question is why did it first form in 1501?

[jimwinsor]

Yeah the Safavids, just outside the possible time frame for the game (FoG2M army lists stop at 1500).

It is interesting what Wikipedia has to say about the ethnicity of the Safavids:

"An Iranian dynasty rooted in the Sufi Safavid order[32] founded by sheikhs claimed by some sources to be of Kurdish[33] origin, it heavily intermarried with Turkoman,[34] Georgian,[35] Circassian,[36][37] and Pontic Greek[38] dignitaries and was Turkish-speaking and Turkified;[39] From their base in Ardabil, the Safavids established control over parts of Greater Iran and reasserted the Iranian identity of the region,[40] thus becoming the first native dynasty since the Buyids to establish a national state officially known as Iran.[41]"

[Mordkalb]

So the next question is why did it first form in 1501?

thus becoming the first native dynasty since the Buyids to establish a national state officially known as Iran.[41]"

Emphasis on "since the Buyids" - so the Buyids, who definitely existed during the game's timeframe, already did that. The statement that it first formed in 1501 is thus false. Also, before the game's timeframe, the Achaemenids, Parthians and Sassanids also could and should be considered Persian states. And yes, the question of ethnic, national and religious identity is extremely complex, with many grey zones. But ultimately, this is a game and some simplifications are necessary.

So, to me, there are two questions:
1) Should it be possible for some polities in the game to form Persia? My answer is yes.
2) Which criteria should be used to determine the polities capable of forming Persia? An interesting question, but beyond the scope of this thread. If Pocus/other devs indicate that they are open to answering Question 1 with yes, then I'll open another thread where we can discuss it in detail.