Extend the Drilled and the Undrilled traits to the Cavalry and the Medium Foot?

[Dux Limitis]

While agreeing that undrilled should be extended to more troop types, I think this would better be implemented via a mod, than imposed on those who disagree, whether from historical or game play perspectives. Similar things have been mod'ed with the anarchy mods already.

Regards,

Karvon

Most of people at least for now don't mind or hold neutral point of view of this, it's never "imposed" on "those who disagree", only one came up so far and his point is unconvincing.

[Athos1660]

@Dux Limitis: if I were you, since the designer said no, I would focus on how to mod my idea. Mods are great to play as you wish and to share your view in a practical way. FoGII community like mods.

[Dux Limitis]

@Dux Limitis: if I were you, since the designer said no, I would focus on how to mod my idea. Mods are great to play as you wish and to share your view in a practical way. FoGII community like mods.

Such size of mod will take a huge amount of time and will need continuous support when the new version of game comes out. Besides I(alongside with a lot of people)generally support this change of the game and we have strong arguments, so we are trying to reason with the Mr.Richard himself. If you are holding neutral view about this I think you could simply step aside and watch, no need to make wisecracks.

[Athos1660]

@Dux Limitis: if I were you, since the designer said no, I would focus on how to mod my idea. Mods are great to play as you wish and to share your view in a practical way. FoGII community like mods.

Such size of mod will take a huge amount of time and will need continuous support when the new version of game comes out. Besides I(alongside with a lot of people)generally support this change of the game and we have strong arguments, so we are trying to reason with the Mr.Richard himself. If you are holding neutral view about this I think you could simply step aside and watch, no need to make wisecracks.

First, please, you will calm down and let ppl express themselves.
Secondly, I don't "make wisecracks". It was a friendly advice.
Thirdly, I am against anything that unnecessarily diverts Richard too long from making true content (DLCs, new games and vacation).
Fourthly, as for the 'We are numerous"...
Fifth, if you don't want to make a mod, too bad for you and the community.

[Dux Limitis]

@Dux Limitis: if I were you, since the designer said no, I would focus on how to mod my idea. Mods are great to play as you wish and to share your view in a practical way. FoGII community like mods.

Such size of mod will take a huge amount of time and will need continuous support when the new version of game comes out. Besides I(alongside with a lot of people)generally support this change of the game and we have strong arguments, so we are trying to reason with the Mr.Richard himself. If you are holding neutral view about this I think you could simply step aside and watch, no need to make wisecracks.

First, please, you will calm down and let ppl express themselves.
Secondly, I don't "make wisecracks". It was a friendly advice.
Thirdly, I am against anything that unnecessarily diverts Richard too long from making true content (DLCs, new games and vacation).
Fourthly, as for the 'We are numerous"...
Fifth, if you don't want to make a mod, too bad for you and the community.

Is this some kind of moral kidnapping? I don't think Mr.Richard will need you to think for him, you do not represent the community either. I don't want to argue with you about this further, for it will lead this thread to the wrong direction. The only thing I could tell you with is we are preparing more arguments.

Thank you for your cogent argumentation.

[Changdao]

From a gameplay perspective, medium foot and cavalry in Ancients are both pretty underpowered for various reasons. Having some unmanoeuvrable versions would make them more useless.

Yes. Which is particularly highlighted by the various Nubian and late Kushite lists, whose foot tends to be unmanouvrable medium trash (quite frequently large size, so extremely expensive) and thus very underwhelming. I don't know why they got the short stick so badly in terms of infantry (and their raw javelins!), but anyone that has tried to play them against anyone decent can see how badly they fare.

[whlwhl10]

Reducing the number of troop classes with distinct Drilled and Undrilled varieties in the computer version of FOG was a deliberate design decision, and not an omission.

We do not plan to add it back.

It could, of course, be modded in.

I think it might be solved in another way, like adding the Unmanuerverable trait to more Medium Foot(e.g. Irregular Foot, which is hilarious), and removing the Unmanuerverable trait of some cavalry units from certain lists(e.g. Ordonnance France/Burgundy).

I generally think it's an extraordinarily bad decision because it severely decimated the aspect of the historical accuracy of the game.

And yet the number of historical nations for which we have evidence of actual drill in the ancient or medieval periods is vanishingly small. (In our geographical area really only Hellenistic Greeks, Romans and Byzantines). Apart from those, which troops got "Drilled" or "Undrilled" status in tabletop FOG was based on "gut feeling".

Not really a sound basis on which to say it was more historical than the current situation in the computer version.

The computer version works on the principle of not inventing differences for which there isn't good historical evidence. That isn't "accuracy", it is speculation.

Furthermore, competitive players in tabletop FOG largely avoided armies using Undrilled Medium Foot because it was so useless.

Irregular Foot mostly represent loosely formed javelin throwing infantry. (In fact they used to be called Javelinmen in the game until some people found that description confusing and persuaded us to change the name to Irregular Foot). Not much need of formation there. And they are surely bad enough already!

This article mainly discusses the “drilled” on the formation effective execution of the overall tactic plan and the influence of the march.（Far east）
What is the general situation of the Far East military exercises and the formation maintenance?
太康末，武帝尝出射雉，勰时已为都水使者，散从。车驾逼暗乃还，漏已尽，当合函，停乘舆，良久不得合，乃诏勰合之。勰举白兽幡指麾，须臾之间而函成（《晋书》 卷二十四 志第十四）
Emperor Wu of Jin
In the later years of his reign (280-289), one night when the emperor was out hunting and military exercising, the imperial guards were unable to form the protective formation "函"（The components include armored dagger axe man, Chinese cataphract and various support personnel. ） and their formation was in chaos (similar to the formation depicted in the "冬寿出行图" painting).

冬寿出行图.png (128.88 KiB) Viewed 2101 times

Commander Chen Xie（陈勰） reorganized the formation by waving his flag to give instructions.
It can be considered that the Chinese drilled medium foot and cavalry has relatively quickly reorganized a mixed formation through guidance and training.

So, how did the drilled medium foot perform in battles? There are quite a lot of accounts of battles from the early Ming Dynasty.
命傅友德守徐州。二月丁未，元扩廓帖木儿遣骁将左丞李贰来寇，兵驻陵子村。友德坚壁，俟其出掠，乃将步骑三千馀溯舟至吕梁，舍舟登陆击之。李贰遣裨将韩乙盛兵迎战，友德跃马奋槊，刺韩乙坠马，败去。友德度李贰必益兵来斗，趋还城，开门出兵，阵于城外。令士卒皆卧枪以待，闻鼓声即起击。有顷，李贰果率众至，友德令鸣鼓，我师奋起，冲其前锋。李贰众大溃，溺死无算，遂生擒贰，获其将士二百馀人，马五百匹。
Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） was ordered to defend Xuzhou(徐州）. On the day ofDingwei in the second month, Yuán（元） Kuòkuò Tèmù'ěr（扩廓帖木儿） sent his valiant general, Left Chancellor Lǐ Èr（李贰）, to invade. His troops were stationed at Língzǐ Village（陵子村）. Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） fortified his position and waited for them to come out . Then, he led over three thousand infantry and cavalrymen up the river to Lúliáng（吕梁）, disembarked and attacked them. Lǐ Èr（李贰） sent his deputy general Hán Yǐ（韩乙） with a large force to meet the challenge. Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） charged forward on horseback, brandishing his spear and thrusting Hán Yǐ（韩乙） off his horse. The enemy fled in defeat. Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） judged that Lǐ Èr（李贰） would surely send more cavalry to battle, so he hurried back to the city, opened the gates and sent out his troops to form an array outside the city. He ordered his soldiers to lie down with their spears ready and to rise and attack upon hearing the drumbeat. Soon, Lǐ Èr（李贰） indeed led his troops to arrive. Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） ordered the drums to be beaten, and his troops sprang up and charged at the enemy's vanguard. Lǐ Èr'（李贰）s troops were completely routed, with countless drowning deaths. Fù Yǒudé（傅友德） captured Lǐ Èr alive and seized over two hundred of his soldiers and five hundred horses.
The key point of the entire event lies in Fu Youde's prompt command. The Ming Dynasty infantry quickly formed their positions and reacted, adopting an ambush tactic. This can be described as a "drilled" operation.
Then we can also observe that the drilled medium foot units achieved considerable success in long-term and strategic battles, such as in the Cai Jiazhuang（蔡家庄） Campaign in 1360 year.
丙午，故元平章完者不花与乃儿不花率胡骑数千入桃林口寇永平，掠民赀畜，指挥刘广率兵御之。时步兵多，骑兵少。广令步卒继后，独率四十余骑先至城北三十里蔡家庄。遇胡骑千余即迎击之。兵少不敌，后军又不继。胡兵射广，中马，马惊仆地，遂被杀。左右多战死。千户王辂被伤噖创，临阵会后军至，阴令部下先分兵伏迁民镇、界陵等处，邀其归路，又分兵出燕河夹击之。胡兵败走，辂乘胜追至迁民镇。伏发，擒完者不花以归，乃儿不花遁去。《太祖实录·卷一三四》
On the day of Bing Wu（1360 year）,wanzhe buhua（完者不花）, a former prime minister of the Yuan Dynasty, and Naierbu Hua（乃尔不花） led several thousand horsemen into Taolin（桃林） Pass to raid Yongping（永平）, plundering the people's property and livestock. Commander Liu Guang（刘广） led troops to resist them. At that time, there were many foot soldiers but few cavalry. Guang（刘广） ordered the foot soldiers to follow behind and led only over forty cavalrymen to reach Caijiazhuang, thirty li north of the city. They encountered over a thousand horsemen and attacked them head-on. With the small number of troops, they were no match for the enemy, and the rear troops did not arrive in time. The enemy shot Guang（刘广） and hit his horse, which fell to the ground in panic. Guang（刘广） was killed. Many of his subordinates died in battle. Wang Lu（王辂）, a thousand-household official, was wounded. Just as the rear troops arrived at the battlefield, he secretly ordered his men to split into groups and lie in ambush at Qianmin（迁民） Town and Jieling（界陵） and other places to cut off the enemy's retreat. He also sent troops to attack the enemy from both sides of Yan River（燕河）. The enemy was defeated and fled. Lu pursued them to Qianmin（迁民） Town. The ambush was sprung, and wanzhebuhua （完者不花）was captured and brought back. Naierbu Hua（乃儿不花） fled.
When the commander was killed in the first battle and the cavalry was completely wiped out, relying on the rapid movement of the infantry, they fought two battles in succession, crossed the Yan River（燕河）, launched a surprise attack and won, and then fought three battles in the Qianmin Town（迁民镇）.
It can be said that the infantry formed a formation and attacked the cavalry first, then launched a surprise attack on the cavalry, achieving consecutive victories.

We think it's okay to remove the drilled part from a portion of the average medium foot.Then reduce the points of some of the undrilled medium foot units.

some of the drilled foot require additional military formation evolution as well as a humanistic and social scientific environment.
Additionally, I can also add the Japanese "drilled" evolution. However, entering the data text vertically is rather troublesome. I will add it later.

[DjanibekKhan]

As a FOG player for two years, I strongly support this idea. Trash medium foot and amateur cavalry can run around equal to those who have trained for years like they have radios or have been genetically coded, this always bothers me.

[fogman]

As a FOG player for two years, I strongly support this idea. Trash medium foot and amateur cavalry can run around equal to those who have trained for years like they have radios or have been genetically coded, this always bothers me.

You hit on the general problem with the game. It's more panzer warfare on the eastern front than tactical medieval battles with non existent control and command.

[Changdao]

For the record, I do think that it would be an interesting change. However, it would only make sense if coupled with a deeper lunge into realism with anarchy charges, charge refusal, fog of war... That generates a much more niche game, one that I would personally enjoy, but I know that many people wouldn't.

It's existance as a mod allows everyone to be satisfied.

[whlwhl10]

Reducing the number of troop classes with distinct Drilled and Undrilled varieties in the computer version of FOG was a deliberate design decision, and not an omission.

We do not plan to add it back.

It could, of course, be modded in.

I think it might be solved in another way, like adding the Unmanuerverable trait to more Medium Foot(e.g. Irregular Foot, which is hilarious), and removing the Unmanuerverable trait of some cavalry units from certain lists(e.g. Ordonnance France/Burgundy).

I generally think it's an extraordinarily bad decision because it severely decimated the aspect of the historical accuracy of the game.

And yet the number of historical nations for which we have evidence of actual drill in the ancient or medieval periods is vanishingly small. (In our geographical area really only Hellenistic Greeks, Romans and Byzantines). Apart from those, which troops got "Drilled" or "Undrilled" status in tabletop FOG was based on "gut feeling".

Not really a sound basis on which to say it was more historical than the current situation in the computer version.

The computer version works on the principle of not inventing differences for which there isn't good historical evidence. That isn't "accuracy", it is speculation.

Furthermore, competitive players in tabletop FOG largely avoided armies using Undrilled Medium Foot because it was so useless.

Irregular Foot mostly represent loosely formed javelin throwing infantry. (In fact they used to be called Javelinmen in the game until some people found that description confusing and persuaded us to change the name to Irregular Foot). Not much need of formation there. And they are surely bad enough already!

I would like to add that the "drilled" and“undrilled” in Japanese evolved from the Nara period to the Muromachi period.
The first section is largely based shokunihonki 《続日本紀》
During the Nara period, military parades and military drills were relatively frequent, and local military units were also eligible for corresponding rewards.
癸卯，教坂東九國軍三萬人教習騎射，試練軍陳。軍陣也。運綵帛二百疋，絁一千疋，綿六千屯，布一万端於陸奧鎮所。
In the year of Kaimu, 30,000 soldiers from the eastern 9 provinces of the army were trained in archery and horsemanship. The troops were arrayed for a parade. Two hundred thousand bolts of colored cloth, one thousand thousand bolts of cotton, six thousand bales of wool, and ten thousand pieces of cloth were transported to mutsu chinshoo（陸奧鎮所）
勅。諸國兵士。團別分爲十番。毎番十日。教習武藝。必使齊整。令條以外。不得雜使。其有關須守者。隨便斟酌。令足守備。
Order. All soldiers of various provinces. The troops are divided into ten groups（Because there were sixty provinces in Japan, it was generally believed that the training period should be sixty days.）. Each group is trained in martial arts for ten days. It is necessary to ensure their uniformity. Beyond the regulations, no other activities are allowed. For matters that must be observed, they can be dealt with as appropriate. Ensure adequate defense capabilities.
Kondou Yoshikazu（近藤好和） roughly listed about twenty items related to cavalry in the "Shokunihonki《続日本紀》 and 17 items concerning archery and horseback riding.

近藤好和.jpg (113.86 KiB) Viewed 1929 times

I won't list them one by one here. Roughly, there are about seven items related to major archery competitions（競技）
About every five years or so, there would be concentrated training in archery and combat.
Some expressions use shu to（衆徒）Perhaps it is an official summary of the people within the local narrow training system.
So, how was the ideal achievement of the military tactics tasks during the Nara period?
First, let's look at the Fujiwara no Nakamaro Rebellion(Emi（惠美） Rebellion)

管內兵士每國廿人，五日為番，集都督衛，簡閲武藝。奏聞畢後，私益其數，用太政官印而行下之。大外記-高丘-比良麻呂，懼禍及己，密奏其事。及收中宮院鈴、印，遂起兵反。其夜，相招黨與，遁自宇治，奔據近江。山背守-日下部-子麻呂，衛門少尉-佐伯-伊多智等，直取田原道，先至近江，燒勢多橋。押勝，見之失色，即便走高嶋郡，而宿前少領-角-家足之宅。（中间省略）伊多智等，馳到越前國，斬守“辛加知”。押勝不知，真光、朝獵等，皆為三品。餘各有差。遣精兵數十，而入愛發關。廣成等，拒而卻之。押勝進退失據，即乘船向淺井郡鹽津。忽有逆風，船欲漂沒。於是，更取山道，直指愛發，伊多智等拒之。八九人中箭而亡。押勝即又還，到高嶋郡三尾埼，與佐伯-三野、大野-真本等，相戰。從午及申，官軍疲頓。于時，從五位下-藤原朝臣-藏下麻呂，將兵忽至。真光，引眾而退。三野等乘之，殺傷稍多。押勝遙望眾敗，乘船而亡。諸將，水陸兩道攻之。押勝阻勝野鬼江，盡鋭拒戰。官軍攻撃之，押勝眾潰。獨與妻子三四人，乘船浮江。石楯獲而斬之。及其妻子從黨卅四人，皆斬之於江頭。
There were twenty soldiers from each province in the camp. They rotated every five days, gathering at the commander's quarters and performing martial arts drills. （Subject: rebel army emino oshikatsu惠美押胜）After the report was submitted, they secretly increased the number and used the imperial administration seal to issue the order.takaoka no hiramaro （高丘比良麻吕）, fearing that he would be harmed, secretly reported the matter. After seizing the bells and seals of the central palace, he raised an army to rebel. That night, he invited his followers and fled from Uji（宇治）, heading to oumi（近江） . (The rest is omitted.) imperial army' itachi（伊多智） and others rode to echizen（越前） Province, beheaded rebel army'Shigachi(辛加知), and rebel emino oshikatsu惠美押胜 did not know about it.imperial army' mahikari（真光） asaryaku（朝猎）, He sent many dozen elite troops to enter the arachinoseki（愛発関） Pass. hironari（広成） and others resisted and repelled them. emino oshikatsu惠美押胜　was in a dilemma and took a boat to ozaishi（浅井）. Suddenly, there was a contrary wind and the boat was about to capsize. Therefore, he took the mountain path and headed straight for arachino　(愛発).imperial army' itachi(伊多智) and others resisted. Eight or nine of them were shot and died. emino oshikatsu惠美押胜 then returned and reached 高嶋郡三尾崎,where he fought with saeki mino（佐伯三野）, oono mamoto（大野真本）, and others. From midday to late afternoon, the imperial army was exhausted. At that time, fujiwara kurajimaro（藤原藏下麻吕）- a court official - who was secretly arriving with troops, suddenly arrived. mahakari（真光） led the troops to retreat.saeki mino（佐伯三野） and others seized the opportunity and killed a few more. emino oshikatsu（惠美押胜） looked at the total defeat of the enemy and took a boat to flee .imperial army attacked from both land and water. emino oshikatsu（惠美押胜） blocked the 勝野鬼江 and used all his strength to resist. The imperial army attacked him, and emino oshikatsu（惠美押胜） troops fled. He alone and with his wife and three or four others took a boat and floated down the river. were captured and beheaded. His wife and thirty-four of her followers were all beheaded at the riverbank.
The highlights of this battle include two maneuvers carried out by saeki mino （佐伯三野）'s troops, and mahakari（真光）'s flexible retreat which led to a complete victory over the rebel forces.
Then, the soldiers in Nara had certain mobility capabilities. How did they demonstrate strategic mobility through strategic deployment?
We can obtain certain answers from the Fujiwara no Hirotsugu rebellion  藤原広嗣の乱
After the imperial army landed in Kyushu on September 21st, they captured three towns through the little unit. By the end of September, they annihilated a portion of the enemy forces. At the same time, on October 9th, they set up a relatively rare type of ishiyumi（I think for light artillery） in Japanese history.
It demonstrates that even in situations requiring rapid maneuvering, the imperial army can still defeat a larger force with fewer troops and the transportation capacity of heavy weapons (normally, Ishiyumi requires the doshi弩師 to be adjustment and educated)

Next comes the evolution of the samurai and group tactics.

[Dux Limitis]

As a FOG player for two years, I strongly support this idea. Trash medium foot and amateur cavalry can run around equal to those who have trained for years like they have radios or have been genetically coded, this always bothers me.

You hit on the general problem with the game. It's more panzer warfare on the eastern front than tactical medieval battles with non existent control and command.

Both of you nailed it.

[Dux Limitis]

Reducing the number of troop classes with distinct Drilled and Undrilled varieties in the computer version of FOG was a deliberate design decision, and not an omission.

We do not plan to add it back.

It could, of course, be modded in.

I think it might be solved in another way, like adding the Unmanuerverable trait to more Medium Foot(e.g. Irregular Foot, which is hilarious), and removing the Unmanuerverable trait of some cavalry units from certain lists(e.g. Ordonnance France/Burgundy).

I generally think it's an extraordinarily bad decision because it severely decimated the aspect of the historical accuracy of the game.

And yet the number of historical nations for which we have evidence of actual drill in the ancient or medieval periods is vanishingly small. (In our geographical area really only Hellenistic Greeks, Romans and Byzantines). Apart from those, which troops got "Drilled" or "Undrilled" status in tabletop FOG was based on "gut feeling".

Not really a sound basis on which to say it was more historical than the current situation in the computer version.

The computer version works on the principle of not inventing differences for which there isn't good historical evidence. That isn't "accuracy", it is speculation.

Furthermore, competitive players in tabletop FOG largely avoided armies using Undrilled Medium Foot because it was so useless.

Irregular Foot mostly represent loosely formed javelin throwing infantry. (In fact they used to be called Javelinmen in the game until some people found that description confusing and persuaded us to change the name to Irregular Foot). Not much need of formation there. And they are surely bad enough already!

I think you could solve this problem in another way, just by adding the Unmaneuverable trait to some Medium Foot(e.g. Irregular Foot, Zealots)and some cavalry(e.g. Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry ), then remove the Unmaneuverable trait of some cavalry(e.g. Ordonnance Franch/Burgundian Men-at-Arms).

Mr.whlwhl10(I often play with him) is an expert on ancient Chinese and Japanese warfare, he has provided many historical documents on the efficiency of drilled troops of the Far East. I sincerely hope you check those out, especially if there's a Far East FOG II project undergoing.

[Athos1660]

I think you could solve this problem in another way, just by adding the Unmaneuverable trait to (...) some cavalry(e.g. Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry ), then remove the Unmaneuverable trait of some cavalry(e.g. Ordonnance Franch/Burgundian Men-at-Arms).

Making Knights (such as the Ordonnance French or the Burgundian MAA) more manoeuvrable than ‘more ordinary cavalry’ (such as the Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry) seems to me "a bit" ahistorical.

The abitity of the line of Knights (haie) to turn left or right was most likely not that effective. They also wasted time reforming a straight line of attack. A priori, their effectivness relied on their coordinated relentless and powerful frontal charges (when done under favourable conditions), not their manoeuvrability.

The charge of the ‘more ordinary cavalry’ was most likely more chaotic, less effective, more scattered, faster to set up, with a 'horde' being more maneuvrable (when/if they obeyed their leader) more like (if not ‘like’) light horses in the game.

imho Knights were most likely more trained and maybe more disciplined than ‘more ordinary cavalry’ but their manoeuvers were most likely much slower (except during the very last part of the charge, at gallop in a straight line).

(I have no doubt either that irl Knights could also behave as chaotically and freely as ‘more ordinary cavalry’ under certain circumstances though.)

So, as I see it, the game goes in the right direction by making the Knights stronger but less manoeuvrable and the "ordinary cavalry" much less effective at charge but (a tiny bit) more manoeuvrable, not to mention the differences in APs.

Moreover, there is already a sub-par MAA unit that can make shine French Ordonnance and Burgundian Men-at-Arms : the Mercenary MAA. They can replace better MAA in any list you wish and be renamed, by simply modding the army lists.

[SuitedQueens]

In terms of gameplay, I wouldn't consider the light-spear & (half)swordsmen Irregulars particularly weak for their cost. I usually pick some when available and use them to plug areas of bad terrain from heavy/cavalry movements, or to anchor a flank to a forest or a difficult hill. They are also affordable at dealing with light foot and massed bows/crossbows in the rough. None of these roles really require or particularly benefit from them being maneuverable.

A role that I find the more questionable for these massed irregular troops is using them at the flanks of the formation, in the positions historically often left to the cavalry or the finest infantry.

From a gameplay perspective, medium foot and cavalry in Ancients are both pretty underpowered for various reasons. Having some unmanoeuvrable versions would make them more useless.

Furthermore, competitive players in tabletop FOG largely avoided armies using Undrilled Medium Foot because it was so useless.

If you do competitive strats i.e. major skirmishing phase, tricky exploity tactical setups, lots of retreating to stretch out time element, having meatshields and sacrificial roadblocks then cheap maneuverable units are in prime cost. Longer term is roles in the envelopment, reserves that join in 2v1's for the Combat Strength modifier sway, troops that allow you to extend your line without creating gaps, troops for zoning Cavalry (and wasting turns on pursuit when they break).

For some of these roles having unmanoeuvrable doesn't matter, and if it makes them cheaper - thats perfect, but maybe slightly unbalanced. For casuals who engage full line and don't respond to opponent maneuveres they might not the best unit indeed. Medium Infantry in the line is often point of weakness that will be targeted by skirmishers and charges of cavalry and infantry, while the rest staggers or prefers to pin, in other words forces opponent to Charge, so potential pushbacks occur in your favor, so reserves can have a field day. And diagonal pushbacks while less frequent allow for the instant Cohesion drops from reserves if you place them properly.




On side note: fighting in the rough is a pipe dream and light troops are decent in holding it if you use those tiles to protect your wing flank. Good players rejoice when opponent spends their points being guided by the logic of Medium troops holding terrain, because you can simply ignore them while crushing the other part of the line. Oops, wasted points.

And I watched a bit of uploaded MP matches by highly regarded players, where the logic on narrow maps (those with rivers or seas blocking a ton of squares goes along the lines: its a narrow frontage, so lets stock up on high quality troops. BUT THE SKILL IN THE GAME is to create narrow frontage engagement with HIGH QUALITY troops on any given terrain, while using tricks and strategic maneuvering to delay engagements for many turns in the other places.

[Dux Limitis]

I think you could solve this problem in another way, just by adding the Unmaneuverable trait to (...) some cavalry(e.g. Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry ), then remove the Unmaneuverable trait of some cavalry(e.g. Ordonnance Franch/Burgundian Men-at-Arms).

Making Knights (such as the Ordonnance French or the Burgundian MAA) more manoeuvrable than ‘more ordinary cavalry’ (such as the Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry) seems to me "a bit" ahistorical.

The abitity of the line of Knights (haie) to turn left or right was most likely not that effective. They also wasted time reforming a straight line of attack. A priori, their effectivness relied on their coordinated relentless and powerful frontal charges (when done under favourable conditions), not their manoeuvrability.

The charge of the ‘more ordinary cavalry’ was most likely more chaotic, less effective, more scattered, faster to set up, with a 'horde' being more maneuvrable (when/if they obeyed their leader) more like (if not ‘like’) light horses in the game.

imho Knights were most likely more trained and maybe more disciplined than ‘more ordinary cavalry’ but their manoeuvers were most likely much slower (except during the very last part of the charge, at gallop in a straight line).

(I have no doubt either that irl Knights could also behave as chaotically and freely as ‘more ordinary cavalry’ under certain circumstances though.)

So, as I see it, the game goes in the right direction by making the Knights stronger but less manoeuvrable and the "ordinary cavalry" much less effective at charge but (a tiny bit) more manoeuvrable, not to mention the differences in APs.

Moreover, there is already a sub-par MAA unit that can make shine French Ordonnance and Burgundian Men-at-Arms : the Mercenary MAA. They can replace better MAA in any list you wish and be renamed, by simply modding the army lists.

You misunderstand me, I'm specifically referring to the "Ordonnance" French and Burgundian Men-at-Arms, because they were the only such type of units (Knightly Lancers) which could be found to have performed and conducted actual drills in Medieval European armies. They also had the strict chain of command compared to other units of the same type contemporarily.

The following sections concerning collective drills and formation arrangements, command and control which are contained in some of the Burgundian Ordonnance, I think you could read them without barriers, for they were written in your native language：

Ordonnance de Saint Maximin de Trèves, novembre 1473:

Ordonne en oultre mondit seigneur que pour mieulx204
habiliter et exerciter lesdittes gens de guerre aux armes et qu'ilz y
soient mieulx205 duiz et instruiz, quant aucun affaire survendra206 lesdis
conductiers, chiefz d'escadre et de chambre, eulx estans en garnison
ou quant ilz auront temps et loisir de ce faire, meynent aucuneffoiz
partie de leurs hommes d'armes jouer aux champs, armez aucuneffoiz
du hault207 de la piece seulement, une autreffoiz de toutes pieces, pour
eulx essayer à courre la lance, eulx tenir en la courant jointz et serrez,
et aussy courre uniement, garder leurs enseignes, eulx departir s'il leur
est ordonné et eulx ralyer en secourant l'un l'autre par commandement,
et208 la maniere de soustenir une charge. Et pareillement les archiers à
tout leurs chevaux pour les accoustumer à descendre de pié et tirer de
l'arc, en les faisant aprendre la maniere d'atachier et abrider leurs
chevaulx ensamble et les faire marchier aprez eulx de front derriere
leur doz, en atachant les chevaulx de trois archiers abridez aux cornetz
de l'arçon de la selle derriere le cheval209 du paige de l'omme d'armes à
qui ilz sont ; en oultre de marchier uniement de front, de tirer sans
eulx rompre et de fere marchier les210 picquenaires en front serrez
devant lesdis archiers, et à ung signe d'eulx mettre à ung211 genoul en
tenant leurs picques bassees de la haulteur des ars des chevaulx, afin
que les archiers puissent tirer par dessus lesdis picquenaires comme
par dessus ung mur, et que se lesdis picquenaires veoient leurs
ennemis mettre en desarroy ilz fussent plus prestz à leur courre sus par
bonne maniere ainsy qu'il leur seroit ordonné ; et aussy d'eulx mettre
doz contre doz212 à double deffence ou en ordonnance quarree ou
ronde, et tousjours les picquenaires hors des archiers, serrez pour
soustenir la charge des chevaulx des ennemis, en encloant ou millieu
d'eulx les paiges et les chevaulx des archiers. Et pourront lesdis
conductiers de prime face introduire ceste maniere de faire par petites
compaignies, et tantost que l'une desdittes compaignies sera duitte et
aprinse ilz y pourront mener des autres ; et en ce faisant lesdis
conductiers auront journellement la veüe et le regard de leurs gens,
lesquelz en ce cas213 ne se oseront absenter ne estre despourveüz de
leurs chevaulx et harnoiz, par ce qu'ilz ne seront pas seürs du jour que
lesdis conductiers les vouldront mener à laditte excercite, et si sera
chacun d'eulx contraint de aprendre à faire son devoir et plus expert
pour s'en aidier toutes et quanteffoiz que besoing sera. Et admonneste
mondit seigneur lesdis conductiers et ceulx qui auront soubz eulx la
charge et conduitte desdittes gens de guerre que, en ayant regard à la
cause pour laquelle mondit seigneur les a mis sus, à la grande
despence qu'il soustient pour leur entretenement et aussi à la peine et
sollicitude que ja par long temps il a prinse pour les mettre en ordre et
discipline, ilz vueillent soingneusement faire leur devoir en ce que dit
est et y eulx tellement y acquitter qu'ilz en facent à recommander ; à
quoy entre autres choses les doit principalement mouvoir l'amour et
obeïssance qu'ilz doivent avoir envers mondit seigneur, et à
l'exaltacion de sa maison, et aussy leur propre honneur et renommee214
qui consistent en ce que mondit seigneur par le moyen de leur bon
service puist parvenir au reboutement de ses ennemiz.

[...]Et pour ce que mondit seigneur desire que lesdis
conductiers, chiefz d'escadres et de chambre se riglent et conduisent
doresenavant selon le contenu de ces presentes ordonnances et qu'ilz
n'obeïssent pas seulement les ungs aux autres selon leur degré et
qualité, mais assistent les ungs aux autres pour avoir l'obeïssance de
leurs gens, attendu que autrement ilz ne pourroient faire service à
mondit seigneur, se ycellui seigneur les treuve molz et laches à faire
les pugnicions cy dessus declairees, son intencion est de s'en prendre à
eulx, car à roidement tenir la discipline de la guerre et pugnir223 les
transgresseurs ilz ne seront par leur gens desobeïz ; si en facent tel
devoir que mondit seigneur ne les puist reprendre de non savoir ou
vouloir faire ce qu'ilz doivent, ouquel cas ne seroient224 dignes de le
servir.

Ordonnance du camp de Lausanne, juin 1476：

C'est assavoir de la compaignie de Dommariena, tant
hommes d'armes que archiers, de la Xe de l'infanterie de pié de Nolin
de Bournovilleb et de la compaignie, tant d'archiers que de hommes
d'armes, de Loys Taillantc ; lesquelz seront, eulx estans en front de
bataille en la maniere qui s'ensuit, assavoir ledit Nolin de Bournoville
à tout ses mil enfans à pié seront en telle largeur de front et especeur
comme ou principal chief de ceste bataille, en l'advis des deux
conductiers des hommes d'armes, de deux capitaines des deux ordres
d'archiers et dudit dixenier ou bon leur semblera, tiendront le moitan
de ceste bataille ; et lesdis archiers de Dommarien qui leur baillera sur
leurs centeniers quelque bien souffisant conduictier seront à la droicte
main desdis enfans à pié entre lesdits hommes d'armes dudit
Dommarien et iceulx enfans à pié ; et tous les quatre escadres de
sesdits hommes d'armes seront en ung front sur l'esle desdits archiers,
et les archiers dudit Loys Taillant et ses hommes d'armes, en mectant
un bien souffisant capitaine sur les centeniers de sesdits archiers,
seront à la main senestre desdits enfans à pié en telle forme et ordre
que les archiers et hommes d'armes dudit Dommarien ; tous lesquels
ensamble feront la premiere bataille.

Ceulx de son hostel, tant les gentilz hommes des quatre
estas, les archiers de quatre centaines d'iceulx estas, les deux
centeniers de l'enfanterie à pié de sondit hostel et le IIIe que de
nouveau il y a adjoinct, sur lesquelz et les autres centeniers à pié, dont
en cest article est faite mencion, mondit seigneur a ordonné chief Jule
de Alteville, les archiers de son corps, les quarante chambellans et
gentilz hommes de sa chambre et l'estendart de mondit seigneur avec
eulx pour le cheminer, la centaine d'archiers que Amille de Mailli
conduict, les deux autres centaines de l'enfanterie à pié de sondit
hostel, la centaine de l'enfanterie à pié de nouveau y adjoincte, les
quatre centaines d'archiers anglois de la garde, et messire Olivier de
La Marche à tout les quatre escadres de la garde feront et tiendront la
seconde bataille, et en cheminant tiendront l'ordre de la file cy dessus
escripte. Et en eulx rengeant en bataille arresteront les quatre escadres
des quatre estas derriere la compaignie dudit Dommarien en telle
distance et espace que par le chief de cestedite bataille leur sera
ordonné. Et le demourant des ordres, tant des archiers des quatre
centaines desdis estas, sur lesquelz quatre centeniers desdits archiers
sera ordonné ung conduictier par le chief de ladicte bataille, le plus
souffisant qu'il pourra trouver, se viendront rengier en front à
l'esclanche main des gentilz hommes des quatre estas ; et les trois
centeniers de l'enfanterie à pié qui auront suivy lesdis archiers sur
lesquelz ledit chief ordonnera quelcun par dessus les trois centeniers
qui soit homme de bien, se mectront à l'esclanche main desdits
archiers ; et la centaine desdits archiers de corps, qui n'auront autre
chief que de leurs capitaines, se arengeront à l'esclanche main desdits
enfans à pié, et l'escadre des chambellans et gentilz hommes de la
chambre avec l'estendart de mondit seigneur, se ce n'est pour
combactre, se arengera et mectra à l'eclanche main de sesdits archiers
de corps. Mais ce s'estoit pour combattre, la banniere d'icellui
seigneur, qui lors se desploira ou nom de Dieu, de Notre Dame et de
monseigneur Saint George, tiendra la place de sondit estendart. Et lors
les maistres ou maistre d'ostel qui n'auront autre occupation, viendront
revitillier le premier escuïer d'escuïerie ou cellui qui servira en son
absence à tout ledit estendart et le conduiront et le mectront sur l'esle
de la compaignie des hommes d'armes desdis quatre estas qui en
auront la garde et le suyveront par tout ou par lesdits maistres ou
maistre d'ostel il sera mené par l'ordonnance du chief de ceste dicte
bataille. Et, des lors en avant, le penon de mondit seigneur desploïé,
porté par son [premier escuïer tranchant], accompaignié comme il
ordonnera le suyvera ou qu'il vast, lequel premier escuïer tranchant
commectra la charge de la cornecte de l'estat à luy de ceulx dudit estat
tel que bon lui semblera ; et la centaine que conduit Amille de Mailli,
sans autre chief, se arengera à l'esclanche main ou front de l'escadre
d'iceulx chambellans ; et les trois centeniers de l'enfanterie à pié, qui à
file auront suivy ledit Amille de Mailly, se arengeront à l'esclanche
main dudit Amille, et semblablement les quatre centeniers des archiers
anglois se arengeront à l'esclanche main de ladite enfanterie à pié,
selon qu'ilz auront cheminé en file, sur lesquelz quatre centeniers sera
ordonné ung bien homme de bien par le chief de cestedite bataille ; et
pareillement les quatre escadres des hommes d'armes de la garde se
arrengeront en front à l'eclanche main de leurs archiers

Et au cheminer en une, en deux ou en trois files, selon que
le païs le pourra porter, les batailles marcheront, c'est assavoir,
chascune bataille marchera en l'ordre de fille qui s'ensuit, comme il
plaira au chief de la bataille la telle hesle de hommes d'armes, soit
dextre ou senestre, marchera devant les archiers et les enfans à pié, en
la maniere qui s'ensuit et selon que le païs le pourra porter, soit par
compaignie de cent hommes d'armes à coup, ou d'escadron de
cinquante lances, ou d'escadre de XXV lances, ou de chambre de six,
de tel nombre que ledit escadron, escadres et chambres seront furnies.

Ordonne et commande mondit seigneur à tous chiefz
ordinaires comme chiefz de chambre, quartronniers et centeniers tant
d'enfans à pié et archiers que conductiers des hommes d'armes,
dixeniers des enfans à pié comme aux capitaines sur les ordres des
archiers, aux capitaines des batailles et aux souverains chiefz des deux
batailles, sur tant qu'ilz le desirent à complaire, craignent et doubtent
le courroucer et d'estre pugniz à son arbitraige, ne laissent sans
pugnicion de mort à nulz gens de guerre trespasser son ordre en
deslogeant, cheminant et logeant ne estant en bataille, present ne
absent des ennemis, et que les quartiers se facent pour les deux
batailles ensemble, sur lequel cartier mondit seigneur ordonne que le[...]

As for the French Compagnie d'Ordonnance Men-at-Arms, I'm unable to find what exact kind of drills they conducted, but I found from 1445 to 1450, they were needed to take the military inspection every month and were being paid at that time. After 1450, the inspection took place every three months. It was mentioned again in 1484. And, they had stopped accepting the services of the nobles with an annual income equal to or greater than 200 l.t. from 1476, for it might make them less docile to the orders of the captains whose wealth and social standing were likely to be more modest than their own.

In conclusion, the constant drills, strict chain of command, and picked members will presumably make them more controllable/manoeuvrable than other contemporary knights/men-at-arms.

[Athos1660]

@ Dux Limitis : I am not sure I did misunderstand you.

I would tend to agree with you about Ordonnance French and Burgundian being most likely better or Elite troops compared to other MAA.

On the other hand, the nitpicking historian in me would say about the Ordonnances you posted above that they do prove Ordonnance Burgundian were meant to drill, but not that other troops did not drill... (during tourneys, for example).

If you want to make a distinction between Ordonnance French and Burgundian and other MAA, why not their Troop quality as I suggested in my previous post ? Why not using Troop quality instead of drill/undrill or manoeuvrable/un manoeuvrable ?

I am biased : I want all the cavalry, , horsemen, MAA... in FoG2 series to be more manoeuvrable

[Athos1660]

Btw, unrelated to this, the Ordonnance de Saint Maximin de Trèves (novembre 1473) you posted describes, in an interesting manner, our in-game 'Pikemen and Longbowmen' unit :

Et pareillement les archiers à tout leurs chevaux pour les accoustumer à descendre de pié et tirer de l'arc, en les faisant aprendre la maniere d'atachier et abrider leurs chevaulx ensamble et les faire marchier aprez eulx de front derriere leur doz, en atachant les chevaulx de trois archiers abridez aux cornetz de l'arçon de la selle derriere le cheval du paige de l'omme d'armes à qui ilz sont ; en oultre de marchier uniement de front, de tirer sans eulx rompre et de fere marchier les picquenaires en front serrez devant lesdis archiers, et à ung signe d'eulx mettre à ung genoul en tenant leurs picques bassees de la haulteur des ars des chevaulx, afin que les archiers puissent tirer par dessus lesdis picquenaires comme par dessus ung mur, et que se lesdis picquenaires veoient leurs ennemis mettre en desarroy ilz fussent plus prestz à leur courre sus par bonne maniere ainsy qu'il leur seroit ordonné ; et aussy d'eulx mettre doz contre doz à double deffence ou en ordonnance quarree ou ronde, et tousjours les picquenaires hors des archiers, serrez pour soustenir la charge des chevaulx des ennemis, en encloant ou millieu d'eulx les paiges et les chevaulx des archiers.

= The bowmen are drilled to keep their horses by their side during the whole battle. The pikemen protected the horses and the dismounted archers from MAA charges. The archers were trained to dismount, then tie up their horses together (led by the MAA's servant : "paige", page) then shoot.

And then there is this sentence : "et que se lesdis picquenaires veoient leurs ennemis mettre en desarroy ilz fussent plus prestz à leur courre sus par bonne maniere ainsy qu'il leur seroit ordonné" meaning in modern French "Si les piquenaires voient les ennemis se mettre en désordre, ils se tiendront prêts à leur courir sus, aussitôt l’ordre reçu." meaning in English something like "If the pikemen see their enemy fragmented/broken/about to flee, they will stand ready to pursue them, as soon as they're ordered."
Who are "they" ? The archers back on their horses, ready for pursue ? Interesting !
Almost dragoons, protected by pikemen when behind them...
Ordonnance Archers charging routers on horseback in the 1470's.
Gives a tactical use to the horses of the Ordonnance archers...
Interesting !

Always asking where the horses of the dismount ones are

I digresssssssss

[Athos1660]

As for the French Compagnie d'Ordonnance Men-at-Arms, I'm unable to find what exact kind of drills they conducted

In his book Guerre, Etat et société à la fin du Moyen Âge, t. II (p. 488-530), highly praised Historian Ph. Contamine writes :

« It is hard to grasp what the daily activities of the French Ordonnance soldiers were. Not causeless maybe : according to the popular opinion, they are, above all, idlers. Unlike the Burgundian ordonnances in the time of Charles the Bold that advise collective drills, the French ordonnances remain discreet on that issue (B. N., n. a. fr. 6219, f° 24v°-26v°). They only stated that the MAAs had to regularly train their men (pages, valets, coutilliers and archers) to draw the bow. We’re only informed of one collective drill : the tourneys (or ‘pas d’armes’). » For example, French MAA Bayard participated in several tourneys over the two years preceding his leaving to Italy. All the participants were Ordonnance MAAs. There were also archery contests. The Ordonnance men also had to ride the horses every day.

(^ Sorry for my mediocre translation/summary in English)

Btw there can always be a huge difference between what an Ordonnance encourages (what is written) and what is actually done in the... field.

[Athos1660]

I wouldn't recommend unmaneuverable as a "default" for the cavalry but there are some that the trait would fit. For example, the Early Cavalry always seemed like a bit too efficient to me. The same thing with classical Greek, and possibly early Roman cavalry.

I think you could solve this problem in another way, just by adding the Unmaneuverable trait to (...) some cavalry(e.g. Mounted Hirdsmen/Housecarl, Early Roman/Greek Armoured Cavalry )

This book provides an interesting view on the role of Classical Greek Cavalry during the pitched battle (see pages 185-200), a major one according to the author. Good arguments with sources imho and matches how Greek Cav behave in FoG2A. You can read extracts here.





Two reviews :
https://classicsforall.org.uk/reading-r ... nd-phalanx

In ‘Cavalry and the Character of Classical Warfare’, Roel Konijnendijk tackles the widely held view that cavalry generally played a marginal and limited role in the wars of the Greeks before the Hellenistic period. He explores the evidence for what he sees as its most important functions: protecting territory; pursuing fleeing enemies; covering flight; ‘herding’ enemy infantry forces; controlling open ground; and winning pitched battles. Engaging at the right moment and in appropriate terrain, a relatively small number of horsemen could have a disproportionate and often decisive effect on the outcome of a battle.

https://ancienthistorybulletin.org/wp-c ... jkEtAl.pdf

Roel Konijnendijk challenges this view and the commonly-held notion of cavalry being ineffective against hoplites. He attacks the old idea that the geography of Greece restricted the use of cavalry, and that the lack of stirrups and saddles made Greek horsemen ineffective in combat. (...)