What else can a Hero do?

penguinism · Post by **penguinism** » Wed May 18, 2005 7:20 pm

The Hero in Troy, apart for being generals and giving a bonus to nearby troop can they do anything else? I mean it it possible to give them a bit of power(magic perhaps), after all most of them are gods(or half gods) in Greek mythology. I was thinking about that when I dug out my old Warcraft 3 and played on it for a while.

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:01 pm

Funily enough I have never played any other scenario with GoT other than the grand campaign. Semi Gods? Who apart from Achilles is there?

And magic? Greeks never believed in magic till the coming of christianity, if then.

penguinism · Post by **penguinism** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:47 pm

You can only name Achilles? Man you got to read your Iliad more often(I am joking, no offence intended)

Well there are Hecotr the Trojan Hero, Paris(who KILLED Achilles by hitting him in the heel with an arrow, his only weakness), Odyssesus who went on a tour of Europe after the War and secure himself a place in the English language(odyssey). And quite a few other ones.
As for magic it was just a generic word for some kind of super power or special attack in the game. Although I do want to say that the Greeks where very superstitious being Pagans and definitely believe in magical powers (like the power of their gods). What has christianity got to do with spreading magic? We certainly never introduced the idea to anyone, the bible clear condemns any form of sorcery in real life.

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Thu May 19, 2005 2:37 am

Technicaly not even Achilles was even a demi god. He was the son of a goddess but himself remained human apart from the little protection in his body than his heel. Even that though it wasn't because he was born like that.

As for the rest you mention, NONE of them were even close to anything like a god. They were all 100% humans, I don't know where you get your info that they were anything else.

I don't understand what the fudge you are talking about the tour of europe and england, is that a joke?

Greeks were not and are not pagans. Pagans is a word used by christians later to make those beliefs that were not like theirs or the jewish, look/sound bad. Since I am one of those "pagans", I would prefer if you did not call me or any other greek a pagan. They and I believe in the Olympian Gods and are not Pagans. I will leave it at this point and not say anything against Christianity.

Ancient greeks did not believe in magic. The power of the Gods are not magic and were not magic either. Magic did not exist as a notion at the time, it was a much later invention in the greek world at least. See my previous post.

The bible condemning sorcery...and who do you think thought of the idea of sorcery first? Taking other peoples beliefs and rituals and using that bullshit term magic/sorcery to scare the people of the time and ridicule (sp?) them. You can condemn something that does not exist all you want, it is not the "pagans" that believe in magic and sorcery, or at least not the greek "pagans". Ok?

bodidley · Post by **bodidley** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:20 am

"pagan" applies to any polytheistic, or non-Judeo/Christian/Muslim/Zoroastrian religion. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Celts, etc all count as "pagan". Modern Hindus and various tribal and non-tribal peoples who do not practice monotheistic religions also count as "pagan" The word is not inherently offensive. As for the tour of Europe thing, I think he means Odysseus' wanderings around the Medditerranean before he managed to return to Ithaca that are recorded in the Odyssey (odyssey is an English language word because it refers to any long journey and return). As for "magic" I think he means any legendary or superhuman power. Ancient Hellenistic mythology doesn't have the great human heros throwing lighting or all that, but sometimes the gods granted people super-human strength or abilities, and any supernatural powers of the gods could also count as "magical" though a better word would be "miraculous" or "supernatural". He's not trying to insult you, efthimios, just cool down

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:30 am

I know how the term pagan is used, which is why I am saying that I and others like me, do not like it. It is a term used for the reasons you mentioned, but it is not the same as say using the term monotheistic for christianity, islam etc. Where that is explanatory the other is insulting. It is like calling ***** ***** and so on. Now, I am not saying that he is trying to insult me on purpose, I am just trying to explain some things and misconceptions. Me and a believer in the ancient Celtic gods/traditions are not pagans. We are not the same. We have different names, beliefs, traditions etc. We are not Walmart toys made from the same production line. Be careful, I am not saying one is better than the other!
As I said, I have no problem with him, just trying to clear things up.
On that, Iraklis, or Hercules as you might know him has superhuman strength, he was half god by the end of his natural life. Odysseus, Hector etc were not. According to Homer they had help at one point or another from the Gods, but they did not have any special qualities other than of any gifted human being.

penguinism · Post by **penguinism** » Thu May 19, 2005 8:53 am

Ok man, this is just a forum about game play. Lets not get involve into any debate about religion or anything for that matter. They usually turns ugly with no purpose what so ever.
Back to the game, yes by magic I just mean super human strength or power. Most of the Greek Hero(like all story telling) are made to be 'larger than life'. They are just better, tougher and stronger than normal people. I think it will suit them in the game if they were given special powers to reflect on this aspect. For example in Troy the movie, we see Achilles throw a javelin at Hector and his men and it went straight into one of them through the heart/chest, something along those line. Beside this is just a game so things like that would only make it more fun. No body seriously expect a game to be 100% historically correct.
As for gods, acient people(not just Greeks) have a habit of deifying thier hero after their death. Achilles was just one of them, there are quite a few different version of stories surround him. For instance:

When Achilles was born, his mother, Thetis, tried to make him immortal by dipping him in the river Styx. As she immersed him, she held him by one heel and forgot to dip him a second time so the heel she held could get wet too. Therefore, the place where she held him remained untouched by the magic water of the Styx and that part stayed mortal or vulnerable.

According to Homer however, Achilles only weakness was his pride.

One last thing, yes I was talking about Odysseus' wanderings around the Medditerranean. After the Trojan war Odysseus and his men went on a quest because they wanted adventure and excitement the War being over(the War supposingly lasted over 10 years). This was in Homer's second epic the 'Odyssey' after the Iliad

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Thu May 19, 2005 9:27 am

My disagreenment with you had nothing to do with proposals for that for this game. With which I disagree (special powers etc) anyway since I do not believe they have anything to do with this game, perhaps in RTW 2 they can use aliens invading (how coold would that be!) but anyway.

The Odyssey is not about him and his men going on a journey for more fighting treasures or what not. The Odyssey is about them trying to return to Ithaca and how by their own mistakes and by the anger of Poseidon they take far longer to return (well Odysseus anyway) than they should. It has nothing to do with them delaying their return 10 years for adventure or what ever.

The story you mentioned about Achilles is the correct one as far as I am concerned. If it actualy happened or not is a bit difficult to say since it happened more than 3000 years ago. I would advise to not base your historical knowledge and accuracy on the movie Troy. Achilles did not die in Troy trying to save a Trojan princess. And that is just one of the many errors and changes from the epic to the screen. Achilles died well before the fall of the city, but anyway.

sum1won · Post by **sum1won** » Thu May 19, 2005 11:05 am

According to Homer however, Achilles only weakness was his pride.

This was because Homer and the other greek poets had an unhealthy obsession with Hubris. I always did prefer the other story. And as for Efthimos and Penguinism, you are both wrong. Both religions, did beleive in magic of a sort. The greeks did beleive in the super natrual powers that their gods possesed, and granted to some humans. And the judiac beleifs only condemn magic when it was used by other religious. Mystiicism is still practiced though. (thats the kabbalistic stuff that the hollywood people do).

And if walking on water isn't magic of a sort, I don't know what is (yes, it is granted by divine powers, but so is Greek "magic")

And Efthimos, the term pagan is actually NOT considered rude. At least not rude compared to most other phrases. However, the way Penguinism used it is stereotypical- by saying that the greeks were pagans, and as a result superstitious. No more superstitious than those who beleived that a certain somebody was/is the messiah, according to another two religions.

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Thu May 19, 2005 11:26 am

sum1won wrote: At least not rude compared to most other phrases. However, the way Penguinism used it is stereotypical- by saying that the greeks were pagans, and as a result superstitious. No more superstitious than those who beleived that a certain somebody was/is the messiah, according to another two religions.

Exactly, not the worst thing one can said but not a nice or even neutral thing either. If other people do not mind, that is fine with me, but for those of us who do believe in the Olympian gods, that is a term we do not like at all. Thanks.

penguinism · Post by **penguinism** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:14 pm

My disagreenment with you had nothing to do with proposals for that for this game. With which I disagree (special powers etc) anyway since I do not believe they have anything to do with this game, perhaps in RTW 2 they can use aliens invading (how coold would that be!) but anyway.

The Odyssey is not about him and his men going on a journey for more fighting treasures or what not. The Odyssey is about them trying to return to Ithaca and how by their own mistakes and by the anger of Poseidon they take far longer to return (well Odysseus anyway) than they should. It has nothing to do with them delaying their return 10 years for adventure or what ever.

The story you mentioned about Achilles is the correct one as far as I am concerned. If it actualy happened or not is a bit difficult to say since it happened more than 3000 years ago. I would advise to not base your historical knowledge and accuracy on the movie Troy. Achilles did not die in Troy trying to save a Trojan princess. And that is just one of the many errors and changes from the epic to the screen. Achilles died well before the fall of the city, but anyway.

What is your problem mate, this is a discussion about a game not about historic accuracy or anything like that. I started this topic about Heros IN THE GAME. Let me say this again THIS IS A PC GAME so what is wrong with a little magic/super power/ what ever you like to call it for a few Hero characters, who cares if the Greek belived in it or not. It will be fun and entertaining. Which brings me to the second point. I am well aware that the movie Troy is not a good representation as with all Hollywood movies. I simpley refered to a scene in it in which the hero Achilles did something which I think is 'cool'. Beside it is not like these suggestion are ever going to get incorporated into the game. I think that efthimios has some personal attitude peroblems so I am just going to ignore you form now on. Why are you so antagonistic about what everone else has to say?

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Thu May 19, 2005 1:46 pm

Its probably time to end this discussion

anguille · Post by **anguille** » Thu May 19, 2005 2:59 pm

Yeah....everyone calm down...

penguinism · Post by **penguinism** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:21 pm

Ok I just go back to beta then.

again

efthimios · Post by **efthimios** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:48 pm

Let me say this one last time, I am against having any kind of super powers, magic, special moves,nuclear weapons or UFOs from a game like Spartan that tries to be more historical than other games set in the ancient times. There is already Rome Total War with some "cool" units that you referred to and I strongly am against of incorporating any such "cool" but very far from realistic units and moves and powers in Spartan or a sequel of this or CoW or Legion. I am talking about this PC AND MAC (I think) GAME. I am not talking about anything else, satisfied? If not, I don't care, everyone has the right to express opinions on what they would like to see or to not see in a game, no matter what Slitherine decides to do so.
I do not have a problem with talking just about the game, but if you (anyone) goes on and talks like this for my beliefs and asks for something based on what he/she claims to be accurate, then I also have an obligation to give my view on the matter. I cannot just stand there and accept that half the kings of the ancients were demi gods or that the greeks used to believe in magic. If not for anything else, for anyone that has no knowledge whatsoever about the past and actualy starts believing such inaccuracies.

Iain or anyone from Slitherine, if you believe that this post should be deleted I have no problem, but I had to reply to his last post. I will not post again in this thread as long as he doesn't continue with the same inaccuracies about my ancestors or their and my beliefs. Which I guess could lead to my banning, but I would not forgive myself letting him go with this without an answer to any such thing.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:14 pm

I think this is just a misunderstanding and we should close this off now. I dont think anyone was intending to or question others beliefs, so lets just forget it and all be friends