noob LRR army with special campaings unit need some advice

chenzhong · Post by **chenzhong** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:33 am

hi all.after i've read the advice from my first LRR army post i recompose the army.i would welcome all kind of reply.cons and pros,tatical advice,any weakness of the army and the adventage and disadventage over other army.especially when facing pike/spear and kinght army.thank you!
3 xTC 105
2BG of 8 base of legionaries HF armour superior drilled IF Ssw 224(core of the army use to penatrate centre)
3BG of 4 base of legionaries HF armour superior drilled IF Ssw 168(mobile reseve to react and hold falnk to win time)
1 BG of 6 base of archers LF unprotected average undrilled bow 30(screen the core army)
2 BG of 4 base of heavy cavalry cavalry protected superior undrilled LS sw 96 (give core rear support and react to flanking or sweeping)
1 BG of 6 base light horse LH unprotected average undrilled javelins LS 42
2 BG of 6 base eastern or thracian horse archers from special campaings LH unprocted average undrilled bow 96(all 3 BG of light horse is to chasing enemy LF and LH and to block enemy battle line move)
fortified camp 24(waste of point)
total 11BG 795point (not too small for a roman army)
here is some question i would like to ask:
is this list legal?
is there any weakness in this army?
how hard is this army when fighting a knight or pike/spear army(from alot of reading seem legionaries do well against anything but spear/pike or knight)
is elephants worth taking?
for LF bow or javelins?
any tatical advice is welcome

DavidT · Post by **DavidT** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:01 pm

I don't have my lists with me to check whether the list is legal, however, it appears to be.
I still believe that BGs of legionaries should be in 4s. However, that is purely a personal point of view and I realise that there are certain advantages in large BGs, particularly if you want to commit a genearl to combat. I try and avoid this as, from past record (in this and other rule sets), I always lose my generals when I commit them to fight. Using 7 BGs of 4 legionaries would increase your army to 13 BGs.
Similarly your LH should be in 4s. They are more manoeuvrable (and manoeuvre is their strength) - e.g if you have a BG of 6 in 2 ranks of 3 and turn it 90 degrees and move off, it ends up in 3 ranks of 2 with the rear rank of no benefit until you expand it in another turn. When wheeling, it takes more distance to wheel, which can be critical when trying to catch the ennemy or, more importantly, to evade from him.
To take on knights (or their in-period equivalent, cataphracts) you need elephants - you could substitute a BG of your cavalry for the elephants.
When fighting pikes, it comes down to who has the longer line. If the frontage of pikes is longer than yours, then you will struggle - however, this is rare with most pike armies (the later Ptolemaic is the worst for you to face). Usually the pike have something soft on the flanks which the legionaries can kill quickly, enabling them to get onto the flanks of the pikes.
I prefer LF with sling.

chenzhong · Post by **chenzhong** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:10 pm

DavidT wrote:I don't have my lists with me to check whether the list is legal, however, it appears to be.
I still believe that BGs of legionaries should be in 4s. However, that is purely a personal point of view and I realise that there are certain advantages in large BGs, particularly if you want to commit a genearl to combat. I try and avoid this as, from past record (in this and other rule sets), I always lose my generals when I commit them to fight. Using 7 BGs of 4 legionaries would increase your army to 13 BGs.
Similarly your LH should be in 4s. They are more manoeuvrable (and manoeuvre is their strength) - e.g if you have a BG of 6 in 2 ranks of 3 and turn it 90 degrees and move off, it ends up in 3 ranks of 2 with the rear rank of no benefit until you expand it in another turn. When wheeling, it takes more distance to wheel, which can be critical when trying to catch the ennemy or, more importantly, to evade from him.
To take on knights (or their in-period equivalent, cataphracts) you need elephants - you could substitute a BG of your cavalry for the elephants.
When fighting pikes, it comes down to who has the longer line. If the frontage of pikes is longer than yours, then you will struggle - however, this is rare with most pike armies (the later Ptolemaic is the worst for you to face). Usually the pike have something soft on the flanks which the legionaries can kill quickly, enabling them to get onto the flanks of the pikes.
I prefer LF with sling.

i dont like the 8 base of legionaries but if only 4 base you will loose out during melee especialy against spear/pike formation because they fight in two rank 8 dice you got only one rank 4 dice.other than that i dont mind.why slinger better than bow they got 2 MU shot range.do you think i got too many LH?it seem LH army are cheese army.and only LH is good against LH.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:15 pm

chenzhong wrote: i dont like the 8 base of legionaries but if only 4 base you will loose out during melee especialy against spear/pike formation because they fight in two rank 8 dice you got only one rank 4 dice.other than that i dont mind.why slinger better than bow they got 2 MU shot range.do you think i got too many LH?it seem LH army are cheese army.and only LH is good against LH.

If you put each BG of 4 legionaries in two lines of 2, one behind the other i.e.

Then put two BGs side by side

You will fight in 2 ranks, the same as a single BG of 8.

But it gives you the flexibility to attack with one BG from the front and go round the flank with the other - which is not available in a BG of 8.

Slingers do not have the extended range of bows, but the effective range is the same and slingers cost less points. LF bow shooting at extended range rarely do much damage because they only get 1 dice per 3 bases.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:13 pm

chenzhong wrote:i dont like the 8 base of legionaries but if only 4 base you will loose out during melee especialy against spear/pike formation because they fight in two rank 8 dice you got only one rank 4 dice.other than that i dont mind.why slinger better than bow they got 2 MU shot range.do you think i got too many LH?it seem LH army are cheese army.and only LH is good against LH.

I think you misunderstand the rules slightly
All troops fight with only front rank bases in impact getting, normally, 2 dice.

In melee: Knights, Chariots, Elephants and Battle wagons only fight with front rank, but get 2 dice per base.

Other troops fight with the first 2 ranks, getting 1 dice per base.

The extra ranks of Pike and Spear add Points of Advantage (PoA) in impact and melee.

(But remember skirmishers lose dice depending who they are fighting)

DavidT · Post by **DavidT** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:12 pm

chenzhong wrote:do you think i got too many LH?it seem LH army are cheese army.and only LH is good against LH.

LH are very useful in the LRR army. I often use 4 BGs of 4 (3 Numidian ally and 1 hose archer). They can be used to chase off or run down pesky LF who would otherwise tempt your legionaries into rash charges, or skirmish against the enemies superior mounted forces giving time for your legionaries to do the business against the enmy foot.

chenzhong · Post by **chenzhong** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:33 am

so in melee even the second rank belong to a different BG they still fight?
also LRR army can do without MF are they really able to fight in rough terrian?
is that ture LRR cavery really cant do anyting except rear support so i shold only take the min 4 base and get more LH

Dareun · Post by **Dareun** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:49 am

chenzhong wrote:so in melee even the second rank belong to a different BG they still fight?
also LRR army can do without MF are they really able to fight in rough terrian?
is that ture LRR cavery really cant do anyting except rear support so i shold only take the min 4 base and get more LH

hi there!
Melee is BG against BG, so if you got a one rank thin BG he cannot expect anything besides moral support from the BG behind him.
The legionnaires are superior armored impact skillswordsmen, they don't have any trouble cruising into the rough except the mud.
The worse unit they might encounter in the rough would be thorakitai that are also armored and Of spears but they are average, so in fact you are alway a poa up in reality.
Well you also could meet some elephants in the rough... but try to think positively!

Your cav could be used in a single rank to lure out some enemy or to clear up light from your flank (you can always send them after some light in the rough the heavy cav + armored status against light skirmisher should do). If you intend to use it only as support and not as a strike force downgrade it to protected instead of armored, you will save a bit. It should be enough to face LH and should give you time enough for your legionaires to reform
Since the legionnaires arent that cheap the LH will serve to slow down the enemy wing that would flank you.

regarding the content:
you got the potential for 7 BG of 4 legionnaires. 2 block of 8 + one TC each, why not. By taking them by BG of 4 instead of BG of 8 you can boost up your AP and give yourself more flexibility.
E.G. you got pike vs 2 BG of legionnaires. One of you BG break, the pike is still stuck with the second one giving your general the time to rally your routing BG and to send it back to clash. Since you re force is in impact you should impact as much as you can!

One BG of 8 on 2 rank means you will get about a maximum of 6 enemy bases in front of you that is to say 12 dices, a brigade of 2 BG of 4 means you would get a maximum of 3 bases against them, that is to say 6 dices max. You mechanically decrease the chance of death roll.
Last but not least your legionnaires in BG of 4 will eventually die when reduced to 1, while in BG of 8 they will disappear when reduced to 3

regarding the LH, BG of 6? why not of 4?

The LF: I'm not sure if your legionnaires need that much to be screened. You re armored and you can offer a very tight front rank, thus you have nearly no chance to have to test for CT. Besides you are superior and drilled with rear support, so if you loose that test maybe you should change your dice

Maybe you can use them or as a screen for your cav or elephants or as a slower on your refused wing or under an ambush marker!

Since you don't have much missile troup i would say that LF bow won't change the face of the game, while LF jav LS could deal with enemy light and maybe survive impact against mounted thx to the light spear when in terrain.

Let us know ho it works after a couple of games!