Dismount and Remount Options

[newbiesoldat]

I'm aware that this topic might have been covered earlier, but I would just like to suggest this once more since I recently came across a mod that allows certain units to dismount. I would like to know how feasible it still to have a dismount AND remount option in the game.

I know that the game includes dismounted units, but my reason for venturing here is that dismounting and remounting during and in the midst of battle, not merely before or after, was very prevalent. A few examples include the Battle of Bremule where Henry I's Norman Knights dismounted and fought but later some remounted to pursue the enemy.In Asia, the Battle of Parwan where the Khwarezmian Prince Jelal al Din Mingburnu had his men dismount and function as foot archers to face the Mongol charge, and later remount again to counter attack and pursue the Mongols. As per Chachnama, Mohammad Bin Qasim had at least some of his cavalry dismount when his army was wavering against the Sindhi army. At the battle of Ain Jalut, the Mongols dismounted when they were surrounded by the Mamluks.

There are many more examples such as these, the point is that they show that units often dismounted and remounted during the battle. Currently in the game units cannot dismount or remount, meaning that a very obvious tactical option is lost.

I know that techinically this might be very complex to implement, and would understand if it cannot be done, especially at this stage, but again as I mentioned before, I just want to explore the feasiblity of it.

[locustmustdie]

I guess the problem is that you can’t remount wherever you want. For example,once dismounted a unit,its horses are left behind on that tile,where you have to go back through battle lines to get remount when latterly needed.
Technically no problem,practically chicken-rib gaming experience.

[Karvon]

I guess the problem is that you can’t remount wherever you want. For example,once dismounted a unit,its horses are left behind on that tile,where you have to go back through battle lines to get remount when latterly needed.
Technically no problem,practically chicken-rib gaming experience.

Yeah, it can lead to some unrealistic, cheesy situations. I can remember a WRG 7th ed game, where dismounting and remounting were allowed, and two opponents repeatedly dismounting/remounting due to the tactical edge they'd gain if they could catch the other in the wrong troop class.

Karvon

[locustmustdie]

Yeah, it can lead to some unrealistic, cheesy situations. I can remember a WRG 7th ed game, where dismounting and remounting were allowed, and two opponents repeatedly dismounting/remounting due to the tactical edge they'd gain if they could catch the other in the wrong troop class.

Karvon

Likewise stake capability became an option at prebattle setup? I played a little in MP? Is stake forbidden in MP now?

[Karvon]

I guess the problem is that you can’t remount wherever you want. For example,once dismounted a unit,its horses are left behind on that tile,where you have to go back through battle lines to get remount when latterly needed.
Technically no problem,practically chicken-rib gaming experience.

Yeah, it can lead to some unrealistic, cheesy situations. I can remember a WRG 7th ed game, where dismounting and remounting were allowed, and two opponents repeatedly dismounting/remounting due to the tactical edge they'd gain if they could catch the other in the wrong troop class.

Karvon

likewise stake capability became an option at prebattle setup? I played a little in MP? Is stake forbidden in MP now?

No, stakes are available in MP; they do cost extra to equip troops with them though. They can be placed during deployment or during the game.

Karvon

[newbiesoldat]

Maybe for remounting, there can be a mechanic that makes the unit inoperative for a turn or two, depending on the distance from its own army's side of the field, the turns may increase or decrease.

The system might work in the following way; if a reserve unit all the way back was dismounted, then it would only take a turn to remount, but if a unit was in the middle of the field, it would take longer, 2 turns reasonably, and finally if the unit was on the far end, deep into the enemy lines, then it would not be able to remount unless it goes back to its own half of the field.

Of course dismounting can be done by any unit in any situation, with just a turn's penalty.

[tyronec]

I know that the game includes dismounted units, but my reason for venturing here is that dismounting and remounting during and in the midst of battle, not merely before or after, was very prevalent. A few examples include the Battle of Bremule where Henry I's Norman Knights dismounted and fought but later some remounted to pursue the enemy.In Asia, the Battle of Parwan where the Khwarezmian Prince Jelal al Din Mingburnu had his men dismount and function as foot archers to face the Mongol charge, and later remount again to counter attack and pursue the Mongols. As per Chachnama, Mohammad Bin Qasim had at least some of his cavalry dismount when his army was wavering against the Sindhi army. At the battle of Ain Jalut, the Mongols dismounted when they were surrounded by the Mamluks.

You have given a few examples but there were many more where cavalry dismounted and didn't remount, so remounting would represent only a small minority of cases. Further some of them seem to be mounting/remounting when the battle was effectively over rather than at a tactical stage during the battle.
Many armies have cavalry units that are classified as dismountable, a tactical advantage like this could make quite a difference. Lancers could be used like dragoons, advance into position and then dismount for combat against defensive spears or elephants. Likewise for HA that dismount as medium foot for clearing rough terrain.
Personally I would not be keen to have a mechanism in the game that could have a significant effect on how it is played, as Karvon has pointed out, to try and represent a minority activity.
Perhaps more suitable as a mod and then it is not going to effect the great majority of play.

[Karvon]

Another issue would be the simple historical balance due to lack of equal info on all armies. Logically, in some cases mounted troops would virtually have to dismount to fight due to terrain or things such as sieges, yet we don't have evidence of this for all armies. It would also require adding new units to the game in order to limit this to allowable lists, investing more programming/developer time that would be probably be better spent on enhancements of greater impact and interest to a wider number of players.

Karvon

[newbiesoldat]

You have given a few examples but there were many more where cavalry dismounted and didn't remount, so remounting would represent only a small minority of cases. Further some of them seem to be mounting/remounting when the battle was effectively over rather than at a tactical stage during the battle.
Many armies have cavalry units that are classified as dismountable, a tactical advantage like this could make quite a difference. Lancers could be used like dragoons, advance into position and then dismount for combat against defensive spears or elephants. Likewise for HA that dismount as medium foot for clearing rough terrain.
Personally I would not be keen to have a mechanism in the game that could have a significant effect on how it is played, as Karvon has pointed out, to try and represent a minority activity.
Perhaps more suitable as a mod and then it is not going to effect the great majority of play.

Firstly, dismounting and remounting in the midst of the battle was relatively rare, yes, but that does not mean that the possibility of such a tactic was not considered by the armies, especially in the initial skirmish phase, or to setup an advantageous position on the go by oberservation. The English and Burgundian armies specifcially had units of Mounted Longbowmen apart from Crossbowmen and Arquebusiers, it was just for this case of tactical flexiblity that these units were envisaged.

Secondly, rarity of a tactic does not mean that it should not be included in the game, rather just as in the real historical circumstance, the mechanics involved in dismounting and remounting should make it a rare occurence. I would request you to look at my suggestion as to the implementation of the system without breaking the way the game is played.

Difficult tactical moves are rare because they need specific training and circumstance to implement, large scale feigned retreat is not a preferred option for most Western European armies in the game, though can be done with considerable effort and planning. Similarly Bertrand du Guescelin did pull off a feigned retreat at the battle of Cocherel. A rare occurence, esepcially by the French, but possible and an option nonetheless. Same should be the case with Dismounting and especially remounting, it should be difficult to the pull off successfully, therein making it a rare occurence rather than just omitting the option altogether.

[newbiesoldat]

Another issue would be the simple historical balance due to lack of equal info on all armies. Logically, in some cases mounted troops would virtually have to dismount to fight due to terrain or things such as sieges, yet we don't have evidence of this for all armies. It would also require adding new units to the game in order to limit this to allowable lists, investing more programming/developer time that would be probably be better spent on enhancements of greater impact and interest to a wider number of players.

Karvon

As to the information on the armies, I'm sure we all can contribute, some well known Western European armies such as the Normans, English, French and the Burgundians can be modified right away, while others can be added with well sourced contributions in the forum.

But yes, I'm also a bit hesitant due to the techincality and the overall feasibility to do this at this late stage. It honestly, would not be fair to the developers for us to ask them to add features so late. I would take this as a bonus, or maybe even as part of some paid DLC, maybe adding a few other army lists to make it an attractive option. I'll be happy to suggest any South Asian army lists in the case a DLC is required for so late an ask on this feature, I'm sure there are people on the forum who can help with other regional army lists as well. Again, all of this is absolute speculation and just to be considered a bonus.

Clarification: The feature, if ever implemented should of course be implemented across all versions irrespective of the DLC since it will be a tactical option for all, though the accompanying DLC with some extra army lists could make it more feasible for developers to consider working on the game at this late stage.

[rbodleyscott]

I'm aware that this topic might have been covered earlier, but I would just like to suggest this once more since I recently came across a mod that allows certain units to dismount. I would like to know how feasible it still to have a dismount AND remount option in the game.

I know that the game includes dismounted units, but my reason for venturing here is that dismounting and remounting during and in the midst of battle, not merely before or after, was very prevalent. A few examples include the Battle of Bremule where Henry I's Norman Knights dismounted and fought but later some remounted to pursue the enemy.In Asia, the Battle of Parwan where the Khwarezmian Prince Jelal al Din Mingburnu had his men dismount and function as foot archers to face the Mongol charge, and later remount again to counter attack and pursue the Mongols. As per Chachnama, Mohammad Bin Qasim had at least some of his cavalry dismount when his army was wavering against the Sindhi army. At the battle of Ain Jalut, the Mongols dismounted when they were surrounded by the Mamluks.

There are many more examples such as these, the point is that they show that units often dismounted and remounted during the battle. Currently in the game units cannot dismount or remount, meaning that a very obvious tactical option is lost.

I know that techinically this might be very complex to implement, and would understand if it cannot be done, especially at this stage, but again as I mentioned before, I just want to explore the feasiblity of it.

The key being that most remounting ocurred in order to pursue - i.e. after the end of the FOG2 battle.

That leaves a tiny minority of historical battles where it could be considered a tactical part of the battle.

Yet our experience of allowing it in previous tabletop rules was that it was used by players far more often than historically.

Better, therefore, we decided, not to allow it.

Its absence is not due to an oversight, nor technical issues.

[MVP7]

I suspect ability to dismount and remount during battle would either be used for gamey POA optimisation, or it would have such prohibitive requirements (cooldown, distance from the abandoned mounts etc) that it wouldn't be useful at all. If a feature is redundant or makes the battles less realistic 9 times out of 10, I don't think there's any reason to add it.

It is probably a feasible thing to mod into the game though. I haven't taken a look myself but the Wagon related scripts should have pretty much everything needed for adding a similar ability to other units.

[locustmustdie]

It’s ok to remain mounted if your maa has a clear path to fall back. Repeating charge and fall back to vanquish infantry,not a disvantage.
Another problem is once dismounted your maa has only 120 men—a light infantry scale that will be a peril in attrition.
Seriously,is there any object can be used as horses without riders in FoG2,FoG2:M,P&S etc. ?

[rbodleyscott]

Seriously,is there any object can be used as horses without riders in FoG2,FoG2:M,P&S etc. ?

Not really. It would be possible to animate the unit models using just the horses, but that is not something I could tell you how to do. We have a man for that.

[Paul59]

It is probably a feasible thing to mod into the game though. I haven't taken a look myself but the Wagon related scripts should have pretty much everything needed for adding a similar ability to other units.

This mod has already added it into the game:

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114709

It's not perfect, and I know RBS and Slitherine could do a perfect job of it, but as Richard has explained it's something that has been considered and rejected as an addition to the game.

[newbiesoldat]

The key being that most remounting ocurred in order to pursue - i.e. after the end of the FOG2 battle.

That leaves a tiny minority of historical battles where it could be considered a tactical part of the battle.

Yet our experience of allowing it in previous tabletop rules was that it was used by players far more often than historically.

Better, therefore, we decided, not to allow it.

Its absence is not due to an oversight, nor technical issues.

Very well, I concede that remounting in the midst of battle seems to be too rare a case to allow it in the game. Though I will still suggest considering the option to just dismount, with maybe a 2 turn penalty to prevent people from exploiting it. Though of course I will follow the opinions of the more experienced players and to your own as to the viability of the function.

[Buttons]

I guess the problem is that you can’t remount wherever you want. For example,once dismounted a unit,its horses are left behind on that tile,where you have to go back through battle lines to get remount when latterly needed.
Technically no problem,practically chicken-rib gaming experience.

Could just have the horses be lost upon dismount or kept with the unit until contacted while dismounted. Using heavy knights as an example for the latter idea

[*]Player has late men at arms
[*]Unit can dismount whenever not in combat taking up all its movement for that turn
[*]If dismounted counts as regular dismounted men at arms (maybe displayed as a single rank of foot knights with some barded horses in the second rank or something)
[*]Dismounted men at arms can remount whenever taking up all its movement for that turn
[*]If dismounted men at arms are contacted in any way (charging or being charged) horses are lost/scattered and unit fights and moves like foot men at arms for the rest of the battle

While I wouldn't mind it as an option between the rare tactical utility and the historical background for how common dismounting mid-battle seeming to be relatively low I wouldn't put this too high on priority. Also this could fundamentally change armies built around dismountable knights and men at arms.