Historical corrections for Kyivan Rus'

[Pankitt]

Greetings, I really enjoyed the game. How can we make this region more historical and eliminate non-historical mistakes?

1) If you go to the Kyivan Rus' coat of arms page, you will see many coats of arms in the form of bidents and tridents in good quality, which can be used in the game. Why wasn't one of them used, instead we see something else in the game?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_the_Rurikids

2) In the game, together with the historically correct name Rus', the incorrect name Russia is used. This is a completely different country and it must be corrected, Rus' is not Russia! You can see this in historical texts, for example when you choose a country

3) Some modifiers are not historical "late Russian culture" - Russians did not live in Rus' at that time, Russians appeared in another era together with Russia. By this modifier, Belarusians and Ukrainians are ignored as nations and everyone becomes Russian. The population of Rus' had another name, not Russians

4) The next modifier is "Kremlins" - this name arose after the disintegration of Kyivan Rus' and was only in the territories of modern Russia. That is, it is a hysterical fake to see the Kremlin in Kyiv.
Use Detinets or Dytynets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detinets

5) On the map of the regions in the area where Moscow is located, we see Velikaya Rus. Where did the developers come up with this? That region was always Muscovy until the emergence of Russia in another historical era. Please fix this


I strongly advise developers to use artificial intelligence on historical questions (for example, https://chatgpt.com), by creating a free account you can get answers to many historical questions, including those I wrote above. Thank you very much!

[Surt]

I would advice to never us AI on anything that has to be factual as AI tends to hallucinate when its knowledge is borderline.

[Pankitt]

I would advice to never us AI on anything that has to be factual as AI tends to hallucinate when its knowledge is borderline.

Once there were many opponents of automatic transmissions, but now it has become the standard. Likewise, using AI, you keep up with the times.

[Patrat]

Imo, I guess using AI is fine, but all the "facts" it comes up with would need a reference from some historical source. Preferably a primary source, if there is none, a respected secondary source will do.

[Joch1955]

As I recall there was a long discussion on this subject when FOG2 Medieval came out in 2021 on Steam. It was pointed out that the generic term Russia has been used for a long time to designate that part of Europe. In the “Tabula Rogeriana” atlas which was produced in 1154 A.D., the area around Kiev is labeled”Rusia”.

[Bekaso]

As I recall there was a long discussion on this subject when FOG2 Medieval came out in 2021 on Steam. It was pointed out that the generic term Russia has been used for a long time to designate that part of Europe. In the “Tabula Rogeriana” atlas which was produced in 1154 A.D., the area around Kiev is labeled”Rusia”.

+++

[Joch1955]

So had a chance to look at the previous thread and the game.

On the Banner issue and why the Ukrainian trident was not used:

1. The Rus army banner is the same one as in FOG2 Medieval, so I guessed it was kept for consistency. The reason you have a generic banner is because the Devs could not find any evidence of what banners were commonly used by Kievan Rus forces and no evidence that the trident was ever used;

2. Kievan Rus is a historical precursor to both modern Russia and modern Ukraine so it would not be fair to use a symbol which is associated with only one of them, so better to use a generic banner;

3. The Ukrainian trident logo is a bit controversial since I understand it was used by Ukrainian forces collaborating with the Nazis in WW2 and even now is used by Ukrainian Neo-Nazi groups like the “Right Sector”, so again safer to use a generic banner;

4. The banner can be modded, so if a player wants to use a trident banner in his own game, he can use or make a mod.

On the name "Russia":

1. maybe I am getting old, but I do not see the words "Russia" anywhere on the map?

2. In any event, a bit of googling shows that in that time period, the term "Russia" to refer to that region was in common use throughout Europe:

In the 11th century, the dominant term in the Latin tradition was Ruscia. It was used, among others, by Thietmar of Merseburg, Adam of Bremen, Cosmas of Prague and Pope Gregory VII in his letter to Izyaslav I. Rucia, Ruzzia, Ruzsia were alternative spellings. During the 12th century, Ruscia gradually made way for two other Latin terms, "Russia" and "Ruthenia". "Russia" (also spelled Rossia and Russie) was the dominant Romance-language form, first used by Liutprand of Cremona in the 960s and then by Peter Damian in the 1030s. It became ubiquitous in English and French documents in the 12th century. Ruthenia, first documented in the early 12th century Augsburg annals, was a Latin form preferred by the Apostolic Chancery of the Latin Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... d_Ruthenia

[Pankitt]

So had a chance to look at the previous thread and the game.

On the Banner issue and why the Ukrainian trident was not used:

1. The Rus army banner is the same one as in FOG2 Medieval, so I guessed it was kept for consistency. The reason you have a generic banner is because the Devs could not find any evidence of what banners were commonly used by Kievan Rus forces and no evidence that the trident was ever used;

2. Kievan Rus is a historical precursor to both modern Russia and modern Ukraine so it would not be fair to use a symbol which is associated with only one of them, so better to use a generic banner;

3. The Ukrainian trident logo is a bit controversial since I understand it was used by Ukrainian forces collaborating with the Nazis in WW2 and even now is used by Ukrainian Neo-Nazi groups like the “Right Sector”, so again safer to use a generic banner;

4. The banner can be modded, so if a player wants to use a trident banner in his own game, he can use or make a mod.

On the name "Russia":

1. maybe I am getting old, but I do not see the words "Russia" anywhere on the map?

2. In any event, a bit of googling shows that in that time period, the term "Russia" to refer to that region was in common use throughout Europe:

In the 11th century, the dominant term in the Latin tradition was Ruscia. It was used, among others, by Thietmar of Merseburg, Adam of Bremen, Cosmas of Prague and Pope Gregory VII in his letter to Izyaslav I. Rucia, Ruzzia, Ruzsia were alternative spellings. During the 12th century, Ruscia gradually made way for two other Latin terms, "Russia" and "Ruthenia". "Russia" (also spelled Rossia and Russie) was the dominant Romance-language form, first used by Liutprand of Cremona in the 960s and then by Peter Damian in the 1030s. It became ubiquitous in English and French documents in the 12th century. Ruthenia, first documented in the early 12th century Augsburg annals, was a Latin form preferred by the Apostolic Chancery of the Latin Church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... d_Ruthenia

1. If the same incorrect flag is used in the game FOG2 Medieval, then it is better to fix it there as well. The developers can easily find proof if they want to, you can even find it in the message above but deliberately left it out

2. For what truth is it about, don't you think it's funny to write it? Ukraine uses a trident that was in Kievan Rus, you can also easily find it. Maybe you have a personal hatred for Ukraine? Then it has nothing to do with the history

3. This is your absolute fabrication, do you know what a Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is? Don't you know that the Russians were accomplices of the fascists and this is officially confirmed by this treaty? Do you know that in the USSR there was a whole army of fascist collaborators called the Vlasov Army that uses the modern Russian flag? Your knowledge of history is very low if you didn't know that

4. This is a cool, but my post only applies to historical edits

Unfortunately, you don`t understand the difference between Rus` and Russia, please better study historical sources

[Joch1955]

Here is the reply of the developer of Field of Glory 2 Medieval when the issue of the Rus Banner was raised:

We have already changed "Russian" to "Rus" for a future update - although it won't appear until the 1st DLC. The OP wasn't the only person to have mentioned this issue, it was also raised on the open Slitherine FOG2 Medieval forum during the closed beta. (Though he was the only person to raise the banner issue).

As to the banner, the OP admitted in his original post that it isn't actually a Muscovite banner - though later he said it was. It was actually made up by our Liverpudlian artist in the style of several Rus banners of the later medieval period, which tended to be of a religious nature. Given that it was made up, it would be one hell of a coincidence if it actually was Muscovite.

This isn't the only banner that is a bit late for this period, but we are using the same banners for most nations from 1050-1500 even though they won't be accurate for part of that period.

So we don't currently plan to change the banner, which is emphatically NOT specifically a Muscovite banner. But we have changed "Russian" to "Rus" - although the change won't be seen until the 1st DLC.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1368870/ ... 628659174/

[Pocus]

This is the answer of Richard Bodley Scott on the use of the flag, then Russia:

Zarkarion [developer] 11 Feb, 2021 @ 4:52pm
I am not sure what Ruthenian flag you are referring to. I am afraid STEAM has blocked your link as potentially malicious.

The faction is called Russian because the language of the game is English, and in English the whole area of the Kiev Rus in this period is usually called Russian. That may not be correct from the point of view of the modern inhabitants of those nations, but it is correct in the non-specialist English historiography of the region.

Also there are not separate army lists for different Rus branches, just as there aren't for different French or German branches, even though French and German regions were very different from each other in this period and there was no sense of national French or German identity at that time.

The Langue d'oc and other French languages of the High Middle Ages were at least as different from each other as the different Ruthenian/Muscovite etc branches.

So it is a simplification, but Ukraine, Belarus etc. have not been singled out for unfair treatment. And certainly not as Russian propaganda.

[Pankitt]

Greetings, I really enjoyed the game. How can we make this region more historical and eliminate non-historical mistakes?

1) If you go to the Kyivan Rus' coat of arms page, you will see many coats of arms in the form of bidents and tridents in good quality, which can be used in the game. Why wasn't one of them used, instead we see something else in the game?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_the_Rurikids

2) In the game, together with the historically correct name Rus', the incorrect name Russia is used. This is a completely different country and it must be corrected, Rus' is not Russia! You can see this in historical texts, for example when you choose a country

3) Some modifiers are not historical "late Russian culture" - Russians did not live in Rus' at that time, Russians appeared in another era together with Russia. By this modifier, Belarusians and Ukrainians are ignored as nations and everyone becomes Russian. The population of Rus' had another name, not Russians

4) The next modifier is "Kremlins" - this name arose after the disintegration of Kyivan Rus' and was only in the territories of modern Russia. That is, it is a hysterical fake to see the Kremlin in Kyiv

5) On the map of the regions in the area where Moscow is located, we see Velikaya Rus. Where did the developers come up with this? That region was always Muscovy until the emergence of Russia in another historical era. Please fix this


I strongly advise developers to use artificial intelligence on historical questions (for example, chatgpt.com), by creating a free account you can get answers to many historical questions, including those I wrote above. Thank you very much!

Friends, thank you for the answers, please pay attention to these points 1-5.

There is a reference to the coats of arms used by the rulers of Kyivan Rus, but in the game, instead of the historical coat of arms, a fictional
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_of_the_Rurikids

And there is a link where you can learn the difference between Rus' and Russia chatgpt.com (or other AI). The term Russia is still used in the descriptions if you choose Rus' and read the historical texts before starting the game

[Joch1955]

Well as pointed out above, the term “Russia” is historically correct. During that time period, what we now call “Kievan Rus” was commonly called “Russia” in English, French or Latin:

In the 11th century, the dominant term in the Latin tradition was Ruscia. (...) Rucia, Ruzzia, Ruzsia were alternative spellings. During the 12th century, Ruscia gradually made way for two other Latin terms, "Russia" and "Ruthenia". "Russia" (also spelled Rossia and Russie) was the dominant Romance-language form, (...) It became ubiquitous in English and French documents in the 12th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... #Etymology

It is the term “Kievan Rus” which is not historically correct. That is a term that was created by modern historians:

The term Kievan Rus' was established by modern historians to distinguish the period from the 9th century to the beginning of the 12th century, when Kiev was the center of a large state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... _to_Russia

IMHO, I do not think we should rewrite history just to be politically correct. The Devs have already bent over backwards by calling all Russian forces in FOG2 Medieval as “Rus” even though by the 1400s even the Russian themselves were referring to their country as Russia:

While the oldest endonyms were Rus' (Russian: Русь) and the Rus' land or Russian land (Russian: Русская земля), a new form of its name, Rusia or Russia, appeared in the 15th century, and became common thereafter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... _to_Russia

[Pankitt]

Well as pointed out above, the term “Russia” is historically correct. During that time period, what we now call “Kievan Rus” was commonly called “Russia” in English, French or Latin:

In the 11th century, the dominant term in the Latin tradition was Ruscia. (...) Rucia, Ruzzia, Ruzsia were alternative spellings. During the 12th century, Ruscia gradually made way for two other Latin terms, "Russia" and "Ruthenia". "Russia" (also spelled Rossia and Russie) was the dominant Romance-language form, (...) It became ubiquitous in English and French documents in the 12th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... #Etymology

It is the term “Kievan Rus” which is not historically correct. That is a term that was created by modern historians:

The term Kievan Rus' was established by modern historians to distinguish the period from the 9th century to the beginning of the 12th century, when Kiev was the center of a large state.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... _to_Russia

IMHO, I do not think we should rewrite history just to be politically correct. The Devs have already bent over backwards by calling all Russian forces in FOG2 Medieval as “Rus” even though by the 1400s even the Russian themselves were referring to their country as Russia:

While the oldest endonyms were Rus' (Russian: Русь) and the Rus' land or Russian land (Russian: Русская земля), a new form of its name, Rusia or Russia, appeared in the 15th century, and became common thereafter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_ ... _to_Russia

Carefully read the links you provided:

a new form of its name, Rusia or Russia, appeared in the 15th century, and became common thereafter

Kyivan Rus' did not exist in this time period. Do you understand that?
Kievan Rus' 880–1240

[Pankitt]

We never replace:
Sumer to Iraq
Rome to Italy
Incas to Peru
Aztecs/Mayans to Mexico
Rus` to Russia

Otherwise, it will be a huge historical mistake! These are completely different countries that arose in a different historical era!

[Joch1955]

I think we are talking past each other. The issue, as I understand it, is whether it is correct to refer to “Kievan Rus” in the game as “Russia” and the answer is that yes it is correct.

During the time period of the game, 1054-1270, it was common in English, French and Latin to refer to what is now called “Kievan Rus” as “Russia”.

Now the meaning of what is referred to as “Russia” changed over time after the Mongol conquest of Kiev and eventually came to mean the “Grand Duchy of Moscow/Tsardom of Russia”. We can argue as to whether the center of Rus culture actually shifted from Kiev to Moscow or whether the rulers in Moscow just appropriated the Rus mantle for political purposes, but that does not change what people in the rest of Europe were calling the country. I know there is an historical debate as to whether the cultural descendant of “Kievan Rus” is modern Ukraine or modern Russia or both, but that is not pertinent for the game.

Bottom line: referring to “Kievan Rus” in game as “Russia” or “Russian” is historically correct and there is nothing to “fix”.

[Pankitt]

I think we are talking past each other. The issue, as I understand it, is whether it is correct to refer to “Kievan Rus” in the game as “Russia” and the answer is that yes it is correct.

During the time period of the game, 1054-1270, it was common in English, French and Latin to refer to what is now called “Kievan Rus” as “Russia”.

Now the meaning of what is referred to as “Russia” changed over time after the Mongol conquest of Kiev and eventually came to mean the “Grand Duchy of Moscow/Tsardom of Russia”. We can argue as to whether the center of Rus culture actually shifted from Kiev to Moscow or whether the rulers in Moscow just appropriated the Rus mantle for political purposes, but that does not change what people in the rest of Europe were calling the country. I know there is an historical debate as to whether the cultural descendant of “Kievan Rus” is modern Ukraine or modern Russia or both, but that is not pertinent for the game.

Bottom line: referring to “Kievan Rus” in game as “Russia” or “Russian” is historically correct and there is nothing to “fix”.

I get the impression that you deliberately ignore everything I write and want to make Russia and Russians out of the historical Rus'. It is very strange, maybe you are a Russian who believes that everyone should be Russian, even though it is historically wrong? Please argue with AI because you write the same thing to me and ignore what I write

[Pocus]

Where exactly do we use Russia on the map or factions list?

[Pankitt]

Where exactly do we use Russia on the map or factions list?

If you choose Rus' before the start of the game, there will be a lot of text, there is the word Russia

1) ...Russia was divided into several rival principalities
2) ...as the Russian plains and forests are vast and riddled with rebellious petty nobles, bandits, and marauders
3) ...weak Russian principalities to their west are ripe for the taking

Maybe it will be somewhere else in the text of the game

+ modifier 'late Russian culture'

Also, please pay attention to all points in the first post of this topic, thank you!

[Joch1955]

I get the impression that you deliberately ignore everything I write and want to make Russia and Russians out of the historical Rus'. It is very strange, maybe you are a Russian who believes that everyone should be Russian, even though it is historically wrong? Please argue with AI because you write the same thing to me and ignore what I write

The reason I am ignoring what you wrote is because you have not provided any evidence to back up your assertion. Again, if you have any evidence that what we now call "Kievan Rus" was NOT commonly called "Russia" in English, French and Latin in the 11th-3th century, why do not post it instead of trying to personalize the debate.

[Joch1955]

If you choose Rus' before the start of the game, there will be a lot of text, there is the word Russia

1) ...Russia was divided into several rival principalities
2) ...as the Russian plains and forests are vast and riddled with rebellious petty nobles, bandits, and marauders
3) ...weak Russian principalities to their west are ripe for the taking

Maybe it will be somewhere else in the text of the game

+ modifier 'late Russian culture'

That is what you are upset about?

The references to Russia in the opening briefing is very general and only to situate the player. It does not refer to Kievan Rus as Russia. IMHO it would not make sense grammatically to change any of that to Rus.

The Realm traits refers to "Late Russian Culture", I guess the Devs could change that to "Late Rus culture" if that will make you happy.

That about making a mountain out of a molehill...