Playing Grand Campaign with the 4-unit rule

[DerPz]

Panzer Corps Grand Campaigns

Hello everyone I wanted to play big bell DLC in a different way and I was digging through pages and came across this post that uses a 4 unit formula to form a division.

---- https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46302 ------

I quote his words: A game unit will represent a regiment. A Panzer Division (by around 1940) was made up of one armoured regiment, two motorised/mechanized infantry regiments and an artillery regiment, so a Panzer Division will be represented by four units in the game. (The recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions of the Panzer Division are not represented as they are too small for this scale).

The structure of a panzer division:
- 1 Unit Panzer
- 1 Wehr infanterie
- 1 Grenadier
- 1 LeArtillerie 75 or 10.5

------------------------------------------
So with these rules, you could make various combinations to create other divisions.
infantry division
motorized infantry division
assault division
Grenadier Division
panzer grenadier division
parachute division
Mountain Division

An example of an infantry division 1939 with the 4-unit rule would be like this:
- Wehr infantry
- Wehr infantry
- Wehr infantry
- 10.5 or 75 Artillery
-> You could also change an infantry unit for a cavalry unit or a 3.7 pak.


I would like to see your comments and examples.
thank you.

[ZloyMazay]

"...The recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions of the Panzer Division are not represented as they are too small for this scale. )

Welcome to PzC scale

In my vision, PzC engine was development for Batallion scale (sometime maybe and Company scale), not for Regiment scale. In this scale of Units PzC can be a much better for representation ...
For example 7th Panzer Division in Batallion scale with recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions:

7th Panzer Divison 40.jpg (329.14 KiB) Viewed 3461 times

[DerPz]

"...The recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions of the Panzer Division are not represented as they are too small for this scale. )

Welcome to PzC scale

In my vision, PzC engine was development for Batallion scale (sometime maybe and Company scale), not for Regiment scale. In this scale of Units PzC can be a much better for representation ...
For example 7th Panzer Division in Batallion scale with recon, engineer, anti-aircraft, anti-tank and motorcycle battalions:7th Panzer Divison 40.jpg

There are many units, you couldn't form a Panzer Corps!!!

[ZloyMazay]

There are many units, you couldn't form a Panzer Corps!!!

Division - about 35 units in batallion scale, 3 x division in Korps + Korps troops = about 130 units. Yep, hard to play, but doable.

Batallion of Panthers prepare for couterattack 30.jpg (54.92 KiB) Viewed 3431 times

Have you seen a Regiment Panthers or Tigers ?

[DerPz]

There are many units, you couldn't form a Panzer Corps!!!

Division - about 35 units in batallion scale, 3 x division in Korps + Korps troops = about 130 units. Yep, hard to play, but doable.Batallion of Panthers prepare for couterattack 30.jpg
Have you seen a Regiment Panthers or Tigers ?

The game maps are not designed for such a large number of units, there are too many.
If the maps allowed it that would be great, but unfortunately they vary greatly in scale.
I think this is an old topic here, I say this because I have already read other posts.

[Locarnus]

Hello everyone I wanted to play big bell DLC in a different way and I was digging through pages and came across this post that uses a 4 unit formula to form a division.

[...]

I would like to see your comments and examples.
thank you.

I assume you refer to the Grand Campaign DLC?
If that is the case, I think that it is not really designed for such a different core composition.

Especially in terms of tank vs infantry ratio.
Your historical infantry numbers would have a very hard time against the ahistorical, but scenario designed hordes of Soviet tanks in open terrain.


Something that goes in a similar direction (less overpowered and a bit more historical player core), but is imho more viable (no required change of inf vs tank ratio), is what goose_2 is attempting in his ongoing youtube playthrough.
Among other difficulty settings (double Rommel -> 25% player prestige, double Field Marshal -> 25% player experience), he uses the house "rule of one". Which means that he can only field one instance of each unit version, eg instead of having multiple best version Panzer IV F2, his second Panzer IV has to be a lower version (eg F1) and his third tank is eg a Panzer III and so on.

Unfortunately the unmodded Panzer Corps lacks unit variety for that "rule of one" in some key areas (eg early fighters).
Night Phoenix tried a youtube playthrough like this as well (vanilla unit roster, though with deducter unit rebalancing, and Night Phoenix had to step away from youtube for personal reasons).
goose_2 uses my "Locarnus Addon" for its much larger unit roster (eg Bf 109 E-1, E-3, E-4, E-7 instead of simply unmodded Bf 109 E).

This simple "rule of one" changes the usual Panzer Corps meta of having "super space marines" best units only in the core (eg 6+ King Tiger units at the end). goose_2 and Night Phoenix also did not use super hero units, like Oleh Dir and Uber Rudel...


goose_2 youtube playthrough (ongoing playthrough, currently in early 1941):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2K7D34 ... GemIYGigms

Night Phoenix youtube playthrough (indefinetely halted or abandoned playthrough at the start of 1941 DLC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67lUPed ... OZtZqLfPMy


Lever Posteg also followed another interesting concept, unrelated to the "rule of one".
He instead split his force into 2 independent ones, going after different areas of each scenario, with limited overlap:

Lever Posteg youtube playthrough (halted? playthrough at the end of 1943 DLC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0kFYmx ... 52udWPxUIu

[DerPz]

Hello everyone I wanted to play big bell DLC in a different way and I was digging through pages and came across this post that uses a 4 unit formula to form a division.

[...]

I would like to see your comments and examples.
thank you.

I assume you refer to the Grand Campaign DLC?
If that is the case, I think that it is not really designed for such a different core composition.

Especially in terms of tank vs infantry ratio.
Your historical infantry numbers would have a very hard time against the ahistorical, but scenario designed hordes of Soviet tanks in open terrain.


Something that goes in a similar direction (less overpowered and a bit more historical player core), but is imho more viable (no required change of inf vs tank ratio), is what goose_2 is attempting in his ongoing youtube playthrough.
Among other difficulty settings (double Rommel -> 25% player prestige, double Field Marshal -> 25% player experience), he uses the house "rule of one". Which means that he can only field one instance of each unit version, eg instead of having multiple best version Panzer IV F2, his second Panzer IV has to be a lower version (eg F1) and his third tank is eg a Panzer III and so on.

Unfortunately the unmodded Panzer Corps lacks unit variety for that "rule of one" in some key areas (eg early fighters).
Night Phoenix tried a youtube playthrough like this as well (vanilla unit roster, though with deducter unit rebalancing, and Night Phoenix had to step away from youtube for personal reasons).
goose_2 uses my "Locarnus Addon" for its much larger unit roster (eg Bf 109 E-1, E-3, E-4, E-7 instead of simply unmodded Bf 109 E).

This simple "rule of one" changes the usual Panzer Corps meta of having "super space marines" best units only in the core (eg 6+ King Tiger units at the end). goose_2 and Night Phoenix also did not use super hero units, like Oleh Dir and Uber Rudel...


goose_2 youtube playthrough (ongoing playthrough, currently in early 1941):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2K7D34 ... GemIYGigms

Night Phoenix youtube playthrough (indefinetely halted or abandoned playthrough at the start of 1941 DLC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67lUPed ... OZtZqLfPMy


Lever Posteg also followed another interesting concept, unrelated to the "rule of one".
He instead split his force into 2 independent ones, going after different areas of each scenario, with limited overlap:

Lever Posteg youtube playthrough (halted? playthrough at the end of 1943 DLC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0kFYmx ... 52udWPxUIu

Very good your observation

[PeteMitchell]

Suggest to compare Battlefield Europe for this as well...

[ZloyMazay]

Suggest to compare Battlefield Europe for this as well...

Yea. In BE sample cannon 10.5 leH shot about 3x45 = 135 km

wtf.JPG (16.19 KiB) Viewed 3223 times

PS. Maybe in next version McGuba's guns will be shoot from Berlin to Moscow...rofl

[DerPz]

Suggest to compare Battlefield Europe for this as well...

Yea. In BE sample cannon 10.5 leH shot about 3x45 = 135 km :)wtf.JPGPS. Maybe in next version McGuba's guns will be shoot from Berlin to Moscow...rofl

[DerPz]

Variant Panzer IV
Nice

[PeteMitchell]

The coment on BE was regarding the historical balance of forces. The map is scaled based on the actual infantry speed from Brest to Moscow...

[PeteMitchell]

Obviously, the distances of the artillery won't work with such a simplification but it's still a game (simulating a very complex and multi-layered war/order of battle), isn't it?

[DerPz]

Greetings, the idea is to do something varied.
The idea of ​​4 units for a division is interesting, but to play DLC Grand Campaign, as you advance you can create an army with two panzer corps.
having as a rule:
- Infantry / Tanks and Light Artillery (75 and 105) as the basic structure of the division and these are represented as Regiments.
- This rule allows you to make a variety of interesting combinations and add support units and even leave divisions in reserves.

[ZloyMazay]

Obviously, the distances of the artillery won't work with such a simplification but it's still a game (simulating a very complex and multi-layered war/order of battle), isn't it?

Yep. It's just a game. But size does matter

Schmeisser Tiger.jpg (65.49 KiB) Viewed 3063 times

[DerPz]

For Wehrmacht and SE

Infantry regiments:
Infanterie
Gebirgsjäger
Grenadier

Infantry battalions:
Pioniere
Kavallerie
Brückenpioniere
Fallschirmjäger
Kradschützen

A Regular infantry division can have several combinations, such as:

1.Div / Example 1 for 1939
- 1 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 2 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 3 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 4 Rgt.LeArt. 75 or 105
----------------
1.Div / Example 2 for 1939
- 1 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 2 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 3 Bat.3.7 cm Pak 36
- 4 Rgt.LeArt. 75 or 105
----------------
1.Div Assault / Example 3 for 1939
- 1 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 2 Rgt.Wehr. Infanterie
- 3 Bat.Pioniere
- 4 Abt.PzArt Sturmpanzer I

[Birgeria]

Here I put my examples of a two-panzer division panzer corps units. They are based on the historical panzer corps Grossdeutchland in late 1944 and more adapted to this game.
Corps level units:
Corps panzer pioneer battalion;
Corps heavy artillery battalion (17cm and above calibers);
Corps panzer fusilier regiment;
Schwere Panzer Abteilung;
Sturmgeschutz Abteilung;
Panzer Division:
Panzergrenadier regiment with Sd.kfz.251 carriers;
Panzergrenadier regiment with soft skin trucks;
Panzer artillery regiment;
Panzer aufklarungs abteilung;
Abteilung I of the panzer regiment (mostly panther tank in1944);
Abteilung II of the panzer regiment (mostly panzer IV in 1944);
Panzer jager abteilung;
The other panzer division has the same organization as the first one.

[DerPz]

Greetings
Division structures with 7 units

[DerPz]

Greetings PzC Community
Panzer division 1939 following the 4-unit rules.
- Corrections according to the Vanilla file 2724 -

Example #1
[ 1.Pz.Div ] = 1.PD./
1.PzRgt./ Pz.II
2.Wehr Inf. Mot
3.Wehr Inf. Mot
4. Le.Art.75 or 105 Mot

Example #2
[ 1.Pz.Div ]
1.PzRgt./ Pz.II / Pz.38(t)a
2.PzAbt./ Pz.I
3.Wehr Inf. Mot
4. Le.Art.75 or 105 Mot

// Strong Panzer Division //
Example #3
[ 1.Pz.Div ]
1.PzRgt./ Pz.38(t)a
2.PzAbt./ Pz.II
3.Btl.Pioniere. Mot
4.Kp.SturmPz I

[DerPz]

With patience, the [Equipment.pzdat] file can be modified to make some minor adjustments and fixes, as well as major modifications.
- WFSS can be added as a separate unit from SE.
- Activate horse transport (ID 435) and assign them only to light field artillery, light AA like the 20, 37 and flakvierling, also the 37 and 50 PaK, I think the 75 should be remarked by a Sdkfz 11 or 7.