How to deal with cavalry (both for & against)

[Karvon]

Here's a link to the 12 season army records.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107874

The Digital League was the forerunner of TDC organized and run by stockwellpete. When he decided to close down, a number of us took up his mantle and setup TDC.

Karvon

[SnuggleBunnies]

Speaking of army lists, I noticed in some of snuggle's videos that he mentions that Huns don't do well in multiplayer. Is there a good source of multiplayer stats by army? I tried googling and I find links that are either really old (2018 timeframe), or broken links.

nomads are better in multiplayer now than they used to be thanks to some patches that made them cheaper. so my comments in older videos are sometimes out of date

[jogibbs12]

Here's a link to the 12 season army records.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107874

Thanks! There are a few outliers, but overall, it's suprisingly even.

Good job, whoever did the balance! Although it doesn't help armchair history buffs who want to argue which armies beat which ones

[Ray552]

I'm no expert here, and sorry if this was already mentioned, but if you are against cav armies and your list has Elephants, you should max out on those. Against cav archers, be sure to screen the Elephants untill you get close to engaging. Also, cav is prone to evade so try to charge with a unit and then rear-charge (specially with Elephants). If Elephants stick on Melee, it's great because they can't be fired upon and the danger of being exposed to flank charges is nearly inexistent since cav can't flank charge Elephants (well, they can but don't cause cohesion drops and odds are not favourable)

+1

Elephants are really useful against non-light cavalry, particularly lancers - anything with the "lancer" capability, which includes xystophoroi, cataphracts and (in Medieval) knightly lancers.

Make sure you look at the full capability listing of the unit, not just the name of the unit - for example, "Bedouin Cavalry" are lancers and swordsmen.

Since lancers do not evade enemy charges, they always take the initial impact of an enemy charge. If the odds of staying in close combat are poor, they will then fall back afterwards from the enemy if they can, unless blocked by units or terrain behind them (including difficult slopes), particularly against elephants, pikemen, offensive spearmen and defensive spearmen.

If cavalry (lancer or non-lancer) are trapped in melee with the elephants, they usually get stomped into jelly by the elephants fairly quickly and routed, particularly as the cavalry is already moderately disordered just by being next to the elephants. If they are trapped by pikemen or off/def spearmen, it will take longer, but the cavalry are usually speared to death and the survivors routed.

As jorgito mentioned, non-lancer cavalry does evade, so to get elephants (or really, any of your units) into melee with them, you either have to charge with them after the enemy cavalry has evaded a charge from another of your units - you'll get an flank or rear auto-drop if your charging unit is cavalry or elephants, but not from infantry.

Fighting elephants is best done (at least at first) from a distance - if they're not in close combat, hit them with missiles of all kinds (they are especially prone to casualties from javelinmen), and if you have artillery, drop a rock or ballista bolt on them for good measure for the extra -1 CT modifier. If you have horse archers, stand off at two-square range, because their shooting effectiveness is decreased due to being moderately disordered if they are next to the elephants.

If the elephants are already in close combat, non-light infantry flank or rear charges will auto-drop them - even massed bowmen will do the trick.

Cavalry will not auto-drop elephants, as jorgito mentioned. Even worse, they will often get stuck in long melees with disrupted or even fragmented elephants, so now you can't even shoot the elephants. So if you're fighting elephants, either shoot them until they rout, or charge them with non-light infantry when they're disrupted or (preferably) fragmented. You can even use light infantry if the elephants are in terrain that will allow that type of charge.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Good points, some minor additions -

'Best Equipped Cavalry' in Medieval can evade despite having Lance.

Infantry cannot break off from Elephants, but cavalry can; so depending on the angle/the tiles behind them, they may be able to break off and get away if there is another friendly unit nearby that can move up and zoc out or shoot the elephants.

[MVP7]

The elephants remind me, camelry also punches above its price when fighting cavalry. If I know I'm going against a cavalry heavy army and I have the option to take a lot of camelry, I tend to do so.

Ideally you'd want your own cavalry not taking the camelry penalty while the enemy does but even if they end up completely mixed, you will still be net positive as long as the fighting doesn't turn into a your slightly disrupted cavalry vs enemy infantry fight.

[jogibbs12]

After watching snuggle's vids and experimenting with some of the tips in this post, I think I'm getting the hang of using cavalry.

Before I had been prioritizing focus fire+dps too much, causing my units to be too clumped up and not deep enough. You don't have to attack with that many of your units for the first third of the battle. You units are doing their job just fine, if they're just ZOCing out possible flank attacks or providing some strategic depth to catch enemies that charged too far.

If you aren't flanked or caught off guard, a cav army is quite good defensively. Even if you're outnumbered, you can last a good long time before the AI whittles you down. Your units evade; they can bounce out of losing fights. If you get dog-piled 2 on one, put a general on the unit and it can last a surprisingly long time. You're sometimes better off putting your support units to ZOC out additional opponent units rather than pile in with 2 more of your own guys creating a big scrum.

The net result is you don't need to seize the initative as much. If your army is tough nut to crack defensively, waiting a turn isn't that costly. Its better to make no counter-charges and wait a turn when your units are in a better position.

You let the pace of offense be dictated by events. You let archery fire take an enemy unit down to disrupted, or let the AI over-reach and chase someone into your side, before you countercharge. The timing for when you initate is a bit out of your control, but when it happens, you should be in good position to follow up with 2-3 units to surround and flank them.

Before I was trying too hard to push the pace / force an engagement. My new approach seems to work much better against the AI.

The short version is I'm much slower to charge now, unless it's a flank attack or a fragmented unit. I found other ways for units to be useful!

[jogibbs12]

One thing I haven't figured out is how to use lancers. I figured out how to play Huns just by never picking any lancers, so every cav unit I have can shoot, and I have fire superiority when fighting equal numbers of opponent cav. Then I can just shoot & wait until my opponent makes a mistake. I don't have to force the action.

But when I play Byzantines, there aren't enough of pure horse archers that I either have to pick some lancers or pick some infantry.

How do you use the lancers properly? They feel slower than the horse archers, they are less maneuverable, they don't really win their 1 on 1 matchups when they charge into a unit, even if they catch. They also get in the way of my more maneuverable units when I'm trying to flank around.

When I play against AI lancers though, AI lancers feel powerful, 1 charging unit scatters all my cav units and the AI always manages to catch some unit. If not the original target, then another one, and often in the flank too. I don't seem to be able to do the same to them, so I must be missing some aspect of how lancers are supposed to work.

[Karvon]

Lancers, even with a general, are not usually going to run down medium or heavy foot in good order straight up. More often than not in such cases, they will hit and simply bounce, assuming there's room to do so. Where they excel is dealing with already disrupted or fragmented foot, or flanking already engaged units. It's often very useful to keep a light or two free within easy range of your lancers to move up as blocks to those bounce backs. This can enable units on the flank or rear of such a target to then charge in for an autodrop.

Lancers are very effective at pinning infantry, as they will fall back after a melee, unless they have a good chance of winning a prolonged melee. You need to be careful about keeping your rear uncluttered if you do want to be able to fall back after a combat, or you'll find yourself stuck, and potentially flanked when outnumbered. Thus, if you move up directly in front of a foot, he can either sit frozen in place, or risk charging you - and potentially getting disrupted or worse - and you will fall back if the odds of winning aren't very favorable. On your turn, you can move up and pin him again. A loose line of lancers can tie up a bigger body of enemy foot employing this method. You just need to keep your rear clear and your line of ZOC intact to continue this. Beware of enemy lights moving in behind to prevent such fall backs.

Non lancer cavalry will usually evade if charged by lancers, so they are useful for clearing them out of the way. If they estimate they can not evade, or consider the odds in their favor due to general, morale or terrain, they may choose to stand and fight. While the lancers have an initial edge in such fights, it's always best to have friends who can move up to rapidly flank in mounted fights, as they otherwise tend to degenerate into rather random and sometime prolonged slugfests.

You need to beware of who you might run into when you unleash lancers at those who can evade. As lancers do not evade, they can be flanked by enemy reserves.

You might want to use your lancers at longer ranges vs enemy lights, for if you do catch them, you may find yourself pursuing broken troops for several turns and out of the battle, or flanked by enemy reserves.

Lancers do not like elephants at all. Stay well clear of those or you will be sorry.

When possible, use your lancers in teams with other horse or lights who can screen you from missile fire and run off lights and cavalry more easily with the threat of the lancers charge range.

Lancers are as mobile as any other cavalry. There are other lance armed horse which are not: cataphracts and knights. Cataphracts are very well armored, but are painfully slow, and a lot more likely to stick in combat rather than bounce back. Knights are only available in Medieval, so I won't discuss those in depth; they are less maneuverable and slower than lancers.

Karvon

[jogibbs12]

Lancers, even with a general, are not usually going to run down medium or heavy foot in good order straight up. More often than not in such cases, they will hit and simply bounce, assuming there's room to do so. Where they excel is dealing with already disrupted or fragmented foot, or flanking already engaged units.

Thanks for the feedback. I tried using the lancers as part of my assault force and ran into exactly this. I don't know where to put them.

1. If I use them as part of the first line of the assault (in place of a horse archer), I'm trading off shooting ability, which is necessary in order to turn opponents into disrupted units. Even if I'm willing to sacrifice that shooting ability, I often find the lancer focus fired, which makes them disrupted. That makes them next to useless (can't shoot, can't charge).

I haven't tried putting a mass of lancers in the first line, but that'll severely limit the shooting ability. That likely means no opponent unit will become disrupted after one round. The AI tends to like to do this (mass lancer charge to initiate), causing mass scattering, but that feels so unpredictable to me that I can't fit it into my battle plan. Who knows where all the pieces will end up?

2. On the other hand, if I use them as part of the second line, then they feel wasted. When the first line manages to get a disruption, the lancers are now too far away to charge. The shooting unit is almost as good a charging unit as the lancer, and its not worth waiting a turn to get the lancer in position. The shooting unit can do the charging. Even if it's a mediocre win rate, you just need to stick for 1 turn, for your flanker to hit the next turn.

Flanking charge units don't have to be good at charging anyways, just quick at getting into position. A horse archer in the second line can do just as well. So where's the Advantage of bringing a lancer?

Plus lancers tend to chase routed units for a long time (longer than horse archers). Not sure if this is objectively true, but it feels that way. Once it charges, it will be out of the battle for 3-4 turns, in terrible position (often itself subject to being charged), and it feels like it takes longer to get it back into the fight.

Lancers are very effective at pinning infantry, as they will fall back after a melee, unless they have a good chance of winning a prolonged melee. You need to be careful about keeping your rear uncluttered if you do want to be able to fall back after a combat, or you'll find yourself stuck, and potentially flanked when outnumbered. Thus, if you move up directly in front of a foot, he can either sit frozen in place, or risk charging you - and potentially getting disrupted or worse - and you will fall back if the odds of winning aren't very favorable. On your turn, you can move up and pin him again. A loose line of lancers can tie up a bigger body of enemy foot employing this method. You just need to keep your rear clear and your line of ZOC intact to continue this. Beware of enemy lights moving in behind to prevent such fall backs.

Since I can't figure out where they fit in on the assault, I suppose I could try to use them like an infantry unit, as part of the holding force. I haven't experimented with it as much.

The one time I tried it, I mixed in some lancers with the infantry line. But the lancers kept falling back and opening a hole for opposing infantry to infiltrate the line. Lancers are also expensive, often more so than the infantry unit it replaces on the line. 40+ for the lancer vs 40- for the Legio Comitenses (for open) or the Irregular Foot (for rough ground).

Your suggestion that I haven't tried yet is a line of loose lancers to tie up up a wider body of foot. Do you space them out on alternate squares?

e.g. 5 AI infantry [ I ] [ I ] [ I ] [ I ] [ I ]
-- vs -- 3 lancers [ L ] [_] [ L ] [_] [ L ]

If so that might be cost effective. I've been trying loose horse archers to tie up a wider body of foot, but that hasn't been very successful. At best I get the infantry to chase me somewhere far and tie up a few chasing units wasting the AI's time, so maybe using loose lancers might be better.

How do you stop them from maneuvering around you? Lancers don't go backwards well (neither do infantry, but they have more units, which means extra units to slowly move around).

Funny enough, when I'm playing against lancers, I consider using a few infantry units to tie up an equal amount of lancers to be a win for me, in terms of cost tradeoff:

e.g. 4 AI lancers [ L ] [ L ] [ L ] [ L ]
--- vs --- 4 infantry [ I ] [ I ] [ I ] [ I ] (often on favorable ground or with height advantage)

I find superior lancers like the Ostrogoth ones so troublesome I consider that's a win just to take them out of a match. Is that a win for me? Since lancers give me trouble when against me, I know they must be useful somehow.

[Karvon]

How you use your lancers in combo with horse archers is dependent on lists, terrain and opponents. My comments are very generalized. For example, with a mixed list, I might use the horse archers in commands of 3-6 and either attach 1-2 lancers to such, or keep the lancers in separate commands of 2-4. I generally keep the lancers 1-2 moves behind the horse archers to avoid premature entanglement with pursuers; you want to pick when and where you commit your lancers. The lancers should be shifting out to the flanks of the axis of the enemy advance.

TBH, I usually shoot targets down to fragmented with horse archer armies before I consider charging them. I prefer to get several enemy fragmented and then use a light horse to possibly see them off and chain break, but it really depends on the tactical situation. If you shift horse archers on to flanks of disrupted units, they are pinned and can't then charge and disperse your shooters.

I don't think lancers pursue any more aggressively, or longer, than bow.

I typically will unleash light horse on routers to see them off and free up my cavalry. Again, this depends on the tactical situation. What sort of enemy reserves are around? Are there chain disruptions/routs which might be set off? Can you shift routers and your pursuers to a more advantageous position by adding to the pursuit?

It is generally a waste of points and units to have a solid line of lancers facing off vs enemy foot. You can have a loose line of 1 space between lancers and keep a denser line of enemy foot tied up. In some case, you can get a way with 2 spaces. You need to beware of enemy lights and mounted in the neighborhood, which might be able to sneak through your loose line when a unit is bounced.

Horse archers and light spear can not be used in this way as they will simply evade when charged in most cases.

Yes, a loose line of heavy foot can be effective in holding off lancers. However, you can get into trouble if the lancers happen to chase something through such holes, unless you happen to have reserves behind to trap such pursuers.

The AI is not particularly bright in using horse, so you can get away with a lot of stuff you would suffer for in MP.

Karvon

[jogibbs12]

Ok. I'll need to experiment some more with the lancers.

I'm intrigued by the idea of spacing out the lancers with 2 squares in between to hold back a horde of infantry. That's so efficient, even if they eventually crumble, it seems well worth it.

I too generally prefer to keeping shooting until fragmented and then use lights to chase them off. That's what I mean by taking it slow. It seems like a very efficient method of attack. But then lancers are just sitting on their hands in the meantime.

[Karvon]

Sitting is a major part of your reserves job. Given the mobility of lancers, your opponent is going to have to account for them in his ongoing plan.

[jogibbs12]

Sitting is a major part of your reserves job. Given the mobility of lancers, your opponent is going to have to account for them in his ongoing plan.

Right. I get that. But what's the advantage of a lancer sitting there in reserve vs a horse archer in reserve? Lancers aren't really cheaper, and a horse archer in reserve still seems more useful / presents more options. They can both charge units that got drawn off side, or advance and flank stuff. A horse archer in reserve can also shoot things if it doesn't want to move out of position.

The only thing I can think of is a lancer in reserve is harder to dislodge than a horse archer in reserve. But when is that distinction useful?

Thinking aloud, if my cav wing is about to crumble, I don't actually mind scattering, since it'll draw the opponent to chase me further away. I suppose if I'm just guarding a flank for another part of the army, after the first line crumbles, a few stubborn lancers in the second line may be better.

One thing I find my mass horse archer wing doesn't seem to handle well are mass lancers. I suppose instead of mass horse archers, having a mix of horse archers & lancers might be a better counter to mass lancers. Your lancer line can prevent your wing from collapsing if the lancers charge en mass. You can segment off some of their lancers with your own lancers and focus fire a few on your opponents edges.

That kind of happened when I tried Byzantines against Ostrogoths, but the Ostrogoth lancers are so good they blew through my Byzantine lancers, who turned out not to be so stubborn after all Instead I learned to like my camel unit, who seemed more stubborn to dislodge than any of my other cav units.

[Karvon]

Well, you want your horse archers shooting or moving on flanks to shoot/pin, so they are more wasted sitting in reserve. Plus, horse archers can run away from bad situations when charged, while lancers can't, so keeping lancers deeper, both protects them and gives you flexibility on when and where to commit them.

Lines of massed lancers are serious trouble for horse archers, especially if the battlefield is constricted by terrain. On the grand tactical scale, you should outnumber these more expensive guys, so they won't be able to cover the whole field. Move out of their way. Move out to the flanks, maintain safe distance when shooting, and redeploy out of the way, so you don't get swept off the board. Gang up on them, massing your fire to wear them down. Sacrificing a token unit can save the rest of the command sometimes.

[jogibbs12]

That makes sense. Holding horse archers in reserve can be considered even more of a "waste" of their initial shooting ability.

And I hear you on massed lancers. When I face mass lancer armies, I immediately go on the defensive, rather than try to figure out an offensive game plan. That's whether I have a cav army or an infantry army.

I think my experience so far is trying to mix in 2 or 3 lancers into my cav core. Maybe I'll try experimenting with an amy list like the Ostrogoths and seeing how mass lancers work.

[MVP7]

The lancers are good when you just really need your cavalry to be less evasive. If you are facing superior quality cavalry, the lancers will also stick to melee much better which allows you to get the auto-cohesion drops with other flanking cavalry units. When you have to frontally impact using cavalry, lancers are better than horse archers or light spear for that role (ideally that wouldn't be something you need to do but battles are rarely ideal).

Lancers are good units to have in the mix when you just can't afford your wing to be loose and evasive. For example, you might be forcing through your small flanking cavalry force that's working against the time limit of your crumbling infantry line, or you might have mixed foot missiles in the cavalry wing and lancers wont lead charging enemy into those missiles by evading.

Lancers can make pretty affordable and damaging delaying front against enemy infantry. Have some lancers in every second square and (importantly) missile troops in between and behind them (though not at their level and make sure they are not blocking lancer fall backs). If the enemy infantry wants to engage you, it will need to charge your lancers with bad odds and high chance of bounce. Even if they are successful, the lancers will likely fall back to avoid melee. You can then move the lancers back up on your turn if possible and the same cycle will repeat, all the while the enemy infantry is being focus fired by your missiles behind the lancers. This can buy you a lot of turns at relatively low cost and has a good chance of disrupting enemies while doing it. It can be more effective than a cheap line of foot that would act as a single use speed bump with little to no harm inflicted on the enemy in the end.

That being said, for cavalry heavy armies, I'll rather take a lot of horse archers and only some lancers to make the formation more solid where necessary and to drive off enemy non-lancer cavalry. Extremely lancers heavy armies (the worst example being the Vandals) are a pain to use and I don't think that concept really becomes effective before Knightly lancers become available.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Lancers can do alright charging certain types of infantry head on - Impact Foot and Light Spear/Swords, and of course Bowmen. Steady Pike and Spear reduce their Impact if not charging, but Lancers can often simply charge down average impact or light spear foot, especially the medium variety that get penalties to losing Impact in the Open to cavalry. Lance impact also inflicts an additional -1 cohesion modifier. So, if you disrupt an enemy unit via shooting, charging them with lancers is far likelier to inflict a frag or even double drop to break than charging them with horse archers.

[jogibbs12]

The lancers are good when you just really need your cavalry to be less evasive.

Experimenting some more with lancers, I finally found a good use for them in cav fights. They're much better at pinning opponent cav units than horse archers.

A pinned opponent unit is almost useless, and a lancer is just much harder to chase off. Using your horse archers to pin the opposing horse archers lets the AI set up some combo moves to chase off all your pins and deliver that flanking blow that you tried so hard to prevent.

Of course, an infantry unit is also better at pinning than horse archers, but lancers are more mobile (plus they get autodrop flank charges against other cav). So finally a unique selling proposition for lancers!

Lancers can make pretty affordable and damaging delaying front against enemy infantry. Have some lancers in every second square and (importantly) missile troops in between and behind them (though not at their level and make sure they are not blocking lancer fall backs). If the enemy infantry wants to engage you, it will need to charge your lancers with bad odds and high chance of bounce.

I also like this idea. I suppose it's a similar idea as pinning cav units, but pinning infantry. But here, you're slowing their progress rather than stopping them from charging your flanks.

So, if you disrupt an enemy unit via shooting, charging them with lancers is far likelier to inflict a frag or even double drop to break than charging them with horse archers.

Ya, I feel like I get double dropped by AI lancers all the time!

[Ray552]

...Extremely lancers heavy armies (the worst example being the Vandals) are a pain to use and I don't think that concept really becomes effective before Knightly lancers become available.

Once in a while they can be useful against an all-cavalry opponent that is a mix of lancers or lancer/50% archer (like the Byzantines) plus horse archers.

If you can mass the Vandals against a portion of the enemy force. lock the enemy lancers in melee and drive off the horse archers, there will be a short window for setting up flank attacks on the engaged lancers before the horse archers can return.

Also setting up charges down a flank to push evading horse archers in front of your other units for secondary rear or flank autodrop charges.

Of course one has to survive being shot in the face first, but nothing comes easy...

And agreed, frontal charges against average or better offensive or defensive spearmen (especially if the spearmen have missile troops supporting them) are usually futile.