Fragged unit charged in the flank during pursuit

aventine · Post by **aventine** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:00 am

We had a situation on saturday where we had several differing points of view.

A cavalry unit routed a LH unit and during the pursuit in Joint Action contacted the flank of an already fragmented LH BG thus dropping it to Rout.

The problem we found was deciding when the LH did its rout move and did the cavalry get another pursuit.

Is it a case of stating that the pursuit was going to contact the flank of the fragmented BG thus dropping it to rout which happened then, this would leave the cavalry with it's normal pursuit - or

The cavalry move into contact and the resolution is carried out in the next impact phase?

We examined the turn chart at the rear of the book but were not clear as to how this resolved correctly.

CLAVDIVS · Post by **CLAVDIVS** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:24 am

Good day,

1, the LH should have done a cohesion test for being charge "WHEN FRAGMENTED" if it failed this test it routes right then see page 61.

2, If it pass the CT test then the cavalry BG moves into contact with the light horse BG at this point the light horse BG drops one level of cohesion so is now “BROKEN” and then routes off , both units pursuit the light horse unit now all units doing a variable movement distance roll “VMD” see pages 108 &136

david53 · Post by **david53** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:19 am

I thought that if the LH passes its test it could evade away from the Cavalry The only reason that this could'nt happen is if it had evaded already.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:36 am

God help us all when Colin is answering Rules Queries.....

Just for a change he got this one completely wrong

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:42 am

So what's the right answer then Dave?

aventine · Post by **aventine** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:46 am

Thanks Clavdivs didn't think about the pursuit contact being a charge and thus triggering the test for being already fragged.

David53 the LH fragged unit was in combat to its front when it was contacted by the pursuiting unit and couldn't evade.

Clavdivs, if we had tested and the LH had passed it would break on contact during the Joint Action phase. The cavalry already in pursuit of the previous LH unit would then get a second VMD move(?) following the breaking of the second LH unit. That seemed a bit extreme to us as the Cavalry would have then caught the original LH unit which had managed to out distance it. We decided that the fragged LH unit was going to break and moved it before the pusuit of the cavalry, this allowed us to resolve the issue and the cavalry only got it's one VMD pursuit move.

What seemed a simple thing turned out to more complex than most other situations we have encountered so far.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:17 pm

Another way of looking at it, the charge is resolved during the next impact phase so theoretically the charge would not hit till impact and the auto break would not occur until then either. That would solve all your duoble pursuits etc.

CLAVDIVS · Post by **CLAVDIVS** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:32 pm

I think you would still have the double pursuits in the impact phase when the light horse auto break

CLAVDIVS · Post by **CLAVDIVS** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:34 pm

So what's the right answer then Dave R.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:22 am

The fragmented LH BG that is would be contacted by the pursuers have to take an immediate CT and if they fail they will immediately rout. If they do this has no effect at all on the pursuers.

If the light horse pass the CT then they can evade as normal, again this has no effect on the pursuers

If for some strange reason the LH choose not to evade or are unable to get out of the way then they are hit by the pursuers and the combat and all its effects are resolved in the next impact phase. If this is the impact phase then the combat is resolved immediately.

ColinB1957 · Post by **ColinB1957** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:52 pm

See David53 post,
the LH fragged unit was in combat to its front when it was contacted by the pursuiting unit and so couldn't not evade. this is the strange reason

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:16 pm

ColinB1957 wrote:See David53 post,
the LH fragged unit was in combat to its front when it was contacted by the pursuiting unit and so couldn't not evade. this is the strange reason

If the LH was in combat then it takes an immediate CT for being charged. If it fails it breaks there and then and routs (I would need to check the rules for the direction of rout but I suspect it splits the angle between the charger and its close combat opponent).

If it passes the CT then it is contacted in the flank and the flank charge is resolved in the next impact phase. If this is the impact phase then the combat is resolved immediately with the result that the LH break on contact and rout with no combat required.

CLAVDIVS · Post by **CLAVDIVS** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:07 pm

dave_r wrote:God help us all when Colin is answering Rules Queries.....

Just for a change he got this one completely wrong

thanks Hammy,

now Mr R completley wrong was I

I will see you Sunday

Bugle999 · Post by **Bugle999** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:18 am

Hammy,
I understand your last post... However - even if the unit passes the cohesion test for being charged whilst fragmented it will drop a level (to Broken) when it stands and is then hit in the flank by the charging/pursuing unit.
So what happens in these circumstances?
The unit obviously routs - is it as soon as it is contacted? Does the charging/pursuing unit make another pursuit move?
Please could you answer in step by step as before please...
MTIA

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:20 am

hammy wrote:The fragmented LH BG that is would be contacted by the pursuers have to take an immediate CT and if they fail they will immediately rout. If they do this has no effect at all on the pursuers.

If the light horse pass the CT then they can evade as normal, again this has no effect on the pursuers

If for some strange reason the LH choose not to evade or are unable to get out of the way then they are hit by the pursuers and the combat and all its effects are resolved in the next impact phase. If this is the impact phase then the combat is resolved immediately.

Is it the case that they drop a level 'immediately' but fight the combat (had there been one, in the next impact phase?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:09 am

titanu wrote:
hammy wrote:The fragmented LH BG that is would be contacted by the pursuers have to take an immediate CT and if they fail they will immediately rout. If they do this has no effect at all on the pursuers.

If the light horse pass the CT then they can evade as normal, again this has no effect on the pursuers

If for some strange reason the LH choose not to evade or are unable to get out of the way then they are hit by the pursuers and the combat and all its effects are resolved in the next impact phase. If this is the impact phase then the combat is resolved immediately.
Is it the case that they drop a level 'immediately' but fight the combat (had there been one, in the next impact phase?

IMO as combat is not adjudicated until the next impact phase the impact as such doesn't realy happen till then so the break happens at the start of the next impact phase. There is specific mention of the test being taken before the impact but no further mention of any exceptions.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:56 pm

IMO as combat is not adjudicated until the next impact phase the impact as such doesn't realy happen till then so the break happens at the start of the next impact phase. There is specific mention of the test being taken before the impact but no further mention of any exceptions.

FWIW I think you're spot on Hammy.

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:24 pm

hammy wrote: IMO as combat is not adjudicated until the next impact phase the impact as such doesn't realy happen till then so the break happens at the start of the next impact phase. There is specific mention of the test being taken before the impact but no further mention of any exceptions.

Sorry to disgree but in persuit p108 2nd column 2nd bullet '... They must immediately take a cohesion test.'
Also p56 2nd column 1st bullet 'BGs contacted by flank or rear charges immediately drop a cohesion level' and hence break.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:56 pm

I agree with Bob.

Hammy doesn't know the rules

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:00 pm

titanu wrote:
hammy wrote: IMO as combat is not adjudicated until the next impact phase the impact as such doesn't realy happen till then so the break happens at the start of the next impact phase. There is specific mention of the test being taken before the impact but no further mention of any exceptions.
Sorry to disgree but in persuit p108 2nd column 2nd bullet '... They must immediately take a cohesion test.'
Also p56 2nd column 1st bullet 'BGs contacted by flank or rear charges immediately drop a cohesion level' and hence break.

The immediately take a cohesion test is simply for having a charge declared on them. It is a function of being fragmented.

While I agree that P56 also says immediately that is when the charge contacts them. The bit on P108 says that fresh contacts are treated as a charge but thay also say combat is adjudicated in the next combat phase. I can see an argument that the auto drop is not combat but if you say that it isn't then does the BG that caused the break pursue again? It has not actually been in combat because that hasn't happened yet and won't happen till the next impact phase.

I know that if I was ruling as an umpire I would rule that the charged BG breaks at the next impact phase. That said I can't actually think that this has ever happened in a game I have played (pursuers catching fragmented enemy in the flank that passed their CT for being charged). I shall keep an eye out for it happening and if it does I will mention it here. After all I managed the evade with lancers at Britcon which I thought was pretty neat