Charging the front of bases already engaged frontally

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:30 pm

A situation from last weekends KoMiCon.

The LH facing page down attacked both my LH BGs in the previous round. I decided to stand with both (in hindsight I should have evaded with one). So during the Movement Phase he could not conform.

Now it's my turn and the question is, can I charge the enemy LH with the right hand Elephant BG (dropping back a base)? Technically it's a legal charge, but effectively I would always end up charging a base frontally that's already in frontal melee, thus during conforming a BG of LH that was in melee last round would no end up in overlap.
In the end we agreed that such a charge is not possible, still I can't stop wondering.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:39 pm

If it is technically a legal charge then yes you can do it.

Once you have done it there is no reason why your LH should not conform to an overlap position. OVerlap is a valid conform and I don't believe there is anything in the conforming or "melees that can't line up" rules to imply that relationships must continue from one turn to the next.

We should ask ourselves if it ought to be a legal charge. IMO probably not.

zeitoun · Post by **zeitoun** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:52 pm

For me you cannot charge because you fight "as if you are conform" during the previous mélée turn. So IF you are conform there is no room to charge.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:36 am

I would say no, the target stand you want to charge is already engaged in melee and is not a charge target.

Could your left hand LH unit not have coformed or were the elephants too close? Perhaps they should have shifte as far to their right as possible and stopped when they made contact with the elephants. Just a thought.

rich0101 · Post by **rich0101** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:02 am

You could not charge because like zeitoun said you are considered to be conformed until your movement phase.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:30 am

Fighting bases can only be charged in flank or rear.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:10 am

rich0101 wrote:You could not charge because like zeitoun said you are considered to be conformed until your movement phase.

I would have said the same, at first glance. But we should remember FOG is a system with alternate movement. So you indeed fight first melee as you was conformed, but you hadn't still the chance to react. Therefore, looking to turn sequence, since impact where you can charge with elephants is before manoeuvre where you must conform with LH, I would say this charge is legal and result is that right hand LH can conform as an overlap aside of elephants.

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:08 am

The rules say that "friendly battle groups not in contact with the enemy must be shifted sideways sufficiently to make room". In this case, assuming that there is room, the elephants would shift sideways to the left, as far as is required in order to allow the other two battlegroups to conform. Seems pretty straight forward to me. See page 71 of the rules.

Peter C

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:23 pm

pcelella wrote:The rules say that "friendly battle groups not in contact with the enemy must be shifted sideways sufficiently to make room". In this case, assuming that there is room, the elephants would shift sideways to the left, as far as is required in order to allow the other two battlegroups to conform. Seems pretty straight forward to me. See page 71 of the rules.

Peter C

I don't agree. The single LH charged both enemy LH, in the following manoeuvre phase is the single LH which should conform to both enemy LH, but it can't obviously. So, before it is time for the couple of LH charged to conform there is the impact phase where elephants can charge. Thereafter, before right hand LH can conform elephants are able to charge, modifying the situation so LH IMO should conform as overlap and not as in front edge contact. This can seem odd, but you must remember FOG is a game with alternate move system. In this case, you could think while LH charges also elephants move.

pcelella · Post by **pcelella** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:21 pm

On consideration, I must say that I agree with you. I was thinking that the LH on the bottom of the page did the charging. Oops! I guess that if the two LH charged the single, why then, it does appear reasonable that the elephants could charge. Sorry.

Peter C

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:25 pm

But the only legal charge against bases fighting is against their flank or rear. So the nellies cannot charge.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:31 pm

p53 mentions you can't charge flank or rear of enemy base in melee to its front...this maybe assumes conforming is already done, but...does it state anywhere you can't charge the front of such a base when conforming hasn't happened yet?

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:39 pm

philqw78 wrote:But the only legal charge against bases fighting is against their flank or rear. So the nellies cannot charge.

I don't know why you say this, as I don't find a such rule. Anyway, literal interpretation of rules many times lead to cheesy plays. Again, if you think FOG is an alternate move system, you should agree that my interpretation simulate a contemporary movement of LH up side and elephants, which your interpretation doesn't allow.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:45 pm

I have at last read my rules about this. Looks like the elephants can charge, as they are contacting the front.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:49 pm

I still say no.
IF the LH had been able to conform there would be no question about if they could charge in, which makes one think that conforming units should have been able to push friends out of the way which would make life a whole lot easier. The enemy LH is in frontal melee so the elephants can only join the existing melee as an overlap or charge flank rear neither of which they can do due to their position.
Also this is not a good situation for the friendly LH since the left hand unit and possibly the right hand unit are disordered by the presence of elephants within a half base width of mounted. AT least one of the friendly LH units is going to be at 1/2 dice. The enemy is too far away thanks to the depth of the LH bases to be affected. I sugggest the elephants wait till one of their buddies breaks and then prepares to move into the gap and disrupt the whole lot of them.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:38 pm

OK, it is clear that the rules explicitly prohibit a charge contacting the flank or rear of a base in combat.

They do not prohibit a charge into the front of a base in combat.

Possibly this was deliberate. Possibly nobody realised it would ever be possible to charge the front of a base in frontal combat and therefore they didn't bother to ban it.

Time for the authors to tell us if this is an erratum or not.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:39 pm

If, using the original diagram, the two BGs of LF and the elephants were the ones charging, would anyone have a problem with all three hitting as in the diagram?

I think the point is that no conform has happened yet. Once the elephant base hits in impact, the 3 BGs will have to all conform.

KillingZoe · Post by **KillingZoe** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:08 pm

Blathergut wrote:If, using the original diagram, the two BGs of LF and the elephants were the ones charging, would anyone have a problem with all three hitting as in the diagram?

Yes, since in the impact there can only be fights one vs one element.
So, since the target unit is only two elements wide, there could only charge two units, or am I mistaken?

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:08 pm

deadtorius wrote:I still say no.
IF the LH had been able to conform there would be no question about if they could charge in, which makes one think that conforming units should have been able to push friends out of the way which would make life a whole lot easier.

Actually that is possible and was part of the problem.

deadtorius wrote: Also this is not a good situation for the friendly LH since the left hand unit and possibly the right hand unit are disordered by the presence of elephants within a half base width of mounted. AT least one of the friendly LH units is going to be at 1/2 dice. The enemy is too far away thanks to the depth of the LH bases to be affected. I sugggest the elephants wait till one of their buddies breaks and then prepares to move into the gap and disrupt the whole lot of them.

Both friendly LH are within 40 mm of the El, but neither had more then 2 bases disordered at the time of the above picture, so neither LH BG is losing a die to disorder just yet. However after having to conform both would lose a die to disorder, as the Elephants would get shifted into a most awkward position. Which is the main reason I contemplated charging with the elephants.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:14 pm

KillingZoe wrote:
Blathergut wrote:If, using the original diagram, the two BGs of LF and the elephants were the ones charging, would anyone have a problem with all three hitting as in the diagram?
Yes, since in the impact there can only be fights one vs one element.
So, since the target unit is only two elements wide, there could only charge two units, or am I mistaken?

It is well possible to have several attacker bases contacting one enemy base during impact. It's just that only one of the attackers is actually allowed to contribute dice during the impact. Accordingly it is possible to have 3 charging units on a 2 wide enemy front.